Deeds and Boundaries

CeePeeBee

Hi all,
Really hoping somebody can assist here.
Long story short, we live at the end of a cul-de-sac, and at the side of us is some council-owned land which is trees and brush. There seems to be a natural boundary which is a little further out from our existing fence. We have tried, and failed, in recent times to find out where our boundary actually is. We have our deeds, but this is a very high level (literally) view of our property and a red boundary line, but with no measurements, and nothing to allow us to understand where our boundary ends and theirs begins.
My Wife spoke to the council today again, and after a while (and a number of departments later) they told us it's our responsibility to find it out, and that they couldn't provide us with any information. We asked about their documentation, ownership of the land, etc. However nothing.

So, I feel that we're now stuck with paying for a surveyor or solicitor to push this somehow. Any ideas how we might get to this?

twopenny

Is there no fence?

If not the quickest way to find out where your boundary is is to put up a fence. That will bring the people who think they know out of the wood work saying 'you can't do that it's ours'

CeePeeBee

twopenny said:

Is there no fence?

If not the quickest way to find out where your boundary is is to put up a fence. That will bring the people who think they know out of the wood work saying 'you can't do that it's ours'

That's basically what we've decided....we're going to "claim" a small piece that we are happy with, and then see what happens. What's the worst that can happen  

In answer to your question though, we do have an outer wall on our on-premises garage....I'm going to follow that wall up in line with how it runs...

Apodemus

How certain are you that the land in question belongs to the Council?  The reason I ask is that it seems that many people simply assume that all undeveloped urban land is owned by the Council, when this is far from the truth.  You also seem to baulk at the cost of paying for your own surveyor or solicitor, but are quite happy for very similar costs to be borne by the ratepayers in general!

But as mentioned above by 2p, the easiest way to proceed is simply to start using the ground and see if anyone complains!

aardvaak

Someone would have 12 years to complain before you can claim it with title

Jeepers_Creepers

Nothing to be lost in trying. If CPB has what appears to be a reasonable line coming from their garage wall, I'd go with that.

CPB, does you garage appear on your deeds? If so, where's the red line in relation to it? Is it vague enough for you to reasonably consider you can get away with it?

How much of that 'trees and bush' will you be taking over? Will it affect its overall appearance once you fence it in - are you going to cut it down? If so, will there still be 'trees and bush' on the outside that'll pretty much effectively keep it the same - ie no great loss to anyone?

And... how wide a strip are we talking about?!.

CeePeeBee

Apodemus said:

How certain are you that the land in question belongs to the Council?  The reason I ask is that it seems that many people simply assume that all undeveloped urban land is owned by the Council, when this is far from the truth.  You also seem to baulk at the cost of paying for your own surveyor or solicitor, but are quite happy for very similar costs to be borne by the ratepayers in general!

But as mentioned above by 2p, the easiest way to proceed is simply to start using the ground and see if anyone complains!

The council have been on numerous occasions to trim the trees that have inevitably fallen down/broken with the winds over the years. It's been confirmed numerous times that this is "council" land. In addition, I'm not baulking at the cost in general, I'm baulking at the fact the council can't/won't let me know where their land starts. Our deeds at high-level ordinance maps - as most are. Very sketchy.

In addition, I've also been told, and verified during some research, that there isn't really "anybody" that can categorically say where the boundaries of an end property are. Utter madness.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Nothing to be lost in trying. If CPB has what appears to be a reasonable line coming from their garage wall, I'd go with that.

CPB, does you garage appear on your deeds? If so, where's the red line in relation to it? Is it vague enough for you to reasonably consider you can get away with it?

How much of that 'trees and bush' will you be taking over? Will it affect its overall appearance once you fence it in - are you going to cut it down? If so, will there still be 'trees and bush' on the outside that'll pretty much effectively keep it the same - ie no great loss to anyone?

And... how wide a strip are we talking about?!.

Thanks for the response. As I mentioned above, the dees are high-level ordinance maps and, as stated in numerous websites and by the council themselves, they are not overly accurate. The land that is currently covered by the hedges seems to have a hydrant or similar stone/concrete sign underneath them, but I can't quite see.3

If our plan was to remove the hedges and tarmac, I'm loath to just "start using the space" only to get into a dispute that will ultimately cost more money. I'm sure you understand.

frogglet

If there are hedges and tarmac  doesn't thd hedge denote the boundary?
Post some pictures.

Jeepers_Creepers

CeePeeBee said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Nothing to be lost in trying. If CPB has what appears to be a reasonable line coming from their garage wall, I'd go with that.

CPB, does you garage appear on your deeds? If so, where's the red line in relation to it? Is it vague enough for you to reasonably consider you can get away with it?

How much of that 'trees and bush' will you be taking over? Will it affect its overall appearance once you fence it in - are you going to cut it down? If so, will there still be 'trees and bush' on the outside that'll pretty much effectively keep it the same - ie no great loss to anyone?

And... how wide a strip are we talking about?!.

Thanks for the response. As I mentioned above, the dees are high-level ordinance maps and, as stated in numerous websites and by the council themselves, they are not overly accurate. The land that is currently covered by the hedges seems to have a hydrant or similar stone/concrete sign underneath them, but I can't quite see.3

If our plan was to remove the hedges and tarmac, I'm loath to just "start using the space" only to get into a dispute that will ultimately cost more money. I'm sure you understand.

Your answers don't help very much, I'm afraid. Essentially because you didn't answer the Qs :-)

Yes, it's a 'high-level' map, but does it show your garage, and how does this sit with the red line? Could you possibly interpret that red line as coming from - touching - the garage wall, or is it pretty obvious the red line sits further in from your garage wall?

If the former, move the fence. It seems as tho' the council's plans are as vague as yours, and a border coming from the outside wall of your garage would seem quite sensible (unless I have misunderstood your description)?

And, if you were to move the boundary to that new line, what would now be on the outside of it - more of the same brush scrub, or blank land? Ie - looking from the outside of your new fence, would it look significantly different?

Finally, how wide a strip are we talking about?

Jeepers_Creepers

Any chance of posting the pic from your deeds?

Apodemus

CeePeeBee said:

The council have been on numerous occasions to trim the trees that have inevitably fallen down/broken with the winds over the years. It's been confirmed numerous times that this is "council" land. In addition, I'm not baulking at the cost in general, I'm baulking at the fact the council can't/won't let me know where their land starts. Our deeds at high-level ordinance maps - as most are. Very sketchy.

That indicates that this may well be Council land, but be aware that Councils often conduct routine maintenance over ground that is not in their ownership. Often this is because of local complaints and local assumptions on ownership and it is quicker, easier and cheaper just to do the maintenance. Equally this may simply be public open space that was left after the developers had finished, with no specific title deed created for it, essentially being the original parcel of land minus a series of individual plots sold out of it.

I'm still not sure why you think the Council deeds will be any more accurate than your own, or why you expect the Council to pay for solicitors time to inspect their deeds for your benefit? If the tables were turned would you be happy if they asked you to provide evidence of your boundary at your cost?

Ignoring the map in your deeds, does the description in the wording in the title document not give any dimensions of your plot?