Care Home Fees - assets & savings running low

Crumble22

justworriedabit said:

Crumble22 said:

Looking for any advise available !

My father resides in a nursing home which my mother pays his weekly £180 top up fee. Mum has tried to sell her home to A, downsize & B, free up equity as her savings are now running low. ( paying the care home from saving & some of her own living expenses as she has a low pension). There has been a family break down with my sister who has power of attorney for my father. She has refused the sale of their home. Is there anything we can do ?? It seems every avenue we turn down we hit a brick wall. Spoken with 3 different solicitors and seem to get nowhere. I heard if she moved out of the home it will then become an asset . Can this force my sisters hand to agree the sale ? 

Hiya Crumble22
It's worth a try by contacting social services and making a telephone appointment with a care manager that specialises in care homes. I'm sure they will have experience of something like what you are encountering. As these CM's specialise in care home referrals/etc they are also familiar with payments, top up scenarios, etc.
I hope it all works out for you.

I have spoken with the council today and they have advised me to raise this with his social worker who is back tomorrow. Thanks for this advice I am going to request a new financial assessment 

Crumble22

*Cherry* said:

Are the mother and father married?  How is the house owned?  the OP says "her home" and "her savings".  As I understood the rules (and this is assuming they are married and jointly owning the property) the value of the property would be disregarded as the mother lives there.  I also thought that only the savings of the person in care - or their half of joint accounts - would be counted in the assessment of fees, even then with a level at which they would not be taken below (£23k?)

I don't disagree with paying for care, and am fully on board with the better standard available when you can fully or partially self fund but if I have read the OP correctly it sounds as though the mother will eventually (soon?) be without home or savings in order to pay for the fathers care - surely that isn't how things should work?

Is the sister actually advising that their fathers funding should be reassessed so as to protect their mothers future needs rather than trying to protect her eventual inheritance?

Yes they are married and the property is owned as tenants in common. You see this is exactly my concern - my mother’s future just doesn’t arm to be being considered here. She is paying the nursing home and some of her own monthly living expenses from saving, which will before long run out! So we wish to keep him where he is by selling the property, mum downsizing with her half, and his half from the same is then freed up to continue paying the care home top up. I have spoken with the council today who have directed me to a social worker . To maybe request a new financial assessment . Thanks for all the comments and suggestions it’s been a great help. 

xylophone

Your parents are legally married?

The property is mortgage free and registered in their joint names?

Your father has no savings of his own and his pension(s) is/ are used to pay some of the cost of his care home fees with the balance being met by the council and your mother?

Your mother entered into a contract with the  council regarding the top up fee?

Your mother can no longer afford the top up fee?

See below which seems relevant.

 https://www.independentage.org/information/support-care/paying-for-care/care-home-top-up-fees?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpeGImLmj7wIVju3tCh0ciwVbEAAYASAAEgK5WPD_BwE

If the person paying the top-up fee can no longer afford to pay it, the council has to carry out a new care needs assessment before deciding what to do. They won’t be able simply to move you to a cheaper care home to resolve the need for the top-up fee. 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf

If third party additional payments cannot be continued, you may have to move to another less expensive home. The local authority should carry out an assessment of the effect on your wellbeing and any risks involved before taking this course of action.

If your mother cannot pay and the LA will not pay but it is judged that your father's needs are best met where he is, then your mother may need to apply to the OPG so that the property can be sold in the best interests of your father?

Mojisola

Crumble22 said:

Yes they are married and the property is owned as tenants in common.

So we wish to keep him where he is by selling the property, mum downsizing with her half, and his half from the same is then freed up to continue paying the care home top up.

If the sale happens and father then has half the capital from the house he may well end up paying all the costs of the care home, not just the top-up fee.

Perhaps this is why your sister doesn't want the house sale to go through - if the money from his half of the house is used in paying for care, any inheritance will be reduced.

xylophone

If the sale happens and father then has half the capital from the house he may well end up paying all the costs of the care home, not just the top-up fee.

Perhaps this is why your sister doesn't want the house sale to go through - if the money from his half of the house is used in paying for care, any inheritance will be reduced.

See https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf
under

5.5 Moving from a disregarded property

justworriedabit

Crumble22 said:

justworriedabit said:

Crumble22 said:

Looking for any advise available !

My father resides in a nursing home which my mother pays his weekly £180 top up fee. Mum has tried to sell her home to A, downsize & B, free up equity as her savings are now running low. ( paying the care home from saving & some of her own living expenses as she has a low pension). There has been a family break down with my sister who has power of attorney for my father. She has refused the sale of their home. Is there anything we can do ?? It seems every avenue we turn down we hit a brick wall. Spoken with 3 different solicitors and seem to get nowhere. I heard if she moved out of the home it will then become an asset . Can this force my sisters hand to agree the sale ? 

Hiya Crumble22
It's worth a try by contacting social services and making a telephone appointment with a care manager that specialises in care homes. I'm sure they will have experience of something like what you are encountering. As these CM's specialise in care home referrals/etc they are also familiar with payments, top up scenarios, etc.
I hope it all works out for you.

I have spoken with the council today and they have advised me to raise this with his social worker who is back tomorrow. Thanks for this advice I am going to request a new financial assessment 

Thank you for letting me know. I hope it works out for you. I'll add a bit more and no disrespect to any social workers/etc but often those with several years experience will know more and the options. You may have already done this but set out some points you really want answers/ to, help with and a couple of scenarios if this happens or not.

Please do not forget that you want a care manager, social worker that specialises or has loads of experience with care home situations. 

I hope it all works out, soon.

Gavin83

*Cherry* said:

I don't disagree with paying for care, and am fully on board with the better standard available when you can fully or partially self fund but if I have read the OP correctly it sounds as though the mother will eventually (soon?) be without home or savings in order to pay for the fathers care - surely that isn't how things should work?

Yes, because his contribution isn't under question here. She agreed to pay the top up fee for the placement and that's the issue. It's completely separate from his assessment. Therefore, although a few people have suggested getting a new financial assessment completed this won't make a difference to the situation mentioned.

Crumble22 said:

*Cherry* said:

Are the mother and father married?  How is the house owned?  the OP says "her home" and "her savings".  As I understood the rules (and this is assuming they are married and jointly owning the property) the value of the property would be disregarded as the mother lives there.  I also thought that only the savings of the person in care - or their half of joint accounts - would be counted in the assessment of fees, even then with a level at which they would not be taken below (£23k?)

I don't disagree with paying for care, and am fully on board with the better standard available when you can fully or partially self fund but if I have read the OP correctly it sounds as though the mother will eventually (soon?) be without home or savings in order to pay for the fathers care - surely that isn't how things should work?

Is the sister actually advising that their fathers funding should be reassessed so as to protect their mothers future needs rather than trying to protect her eventual inheritance?

So we wish to keep him where he is by selling the property, mum downsizing with her half, and his half from the same is then freed up to continue paying the care home top up.

Read my previous post, it's not as simple as that. As an example lets say the house is worth £400k and is mortgage free. Your mum sells it and buys a property for £200k, using 'her half' as you say. The remaining £200k would then be split between them. Therefore he'd be re-assessed as owning an extra £100k in assets at which point he'd become full cost. It does eliminate the top up issue as he'd now be covering it from his assets but the council won't make a contribution either.

Do you know how much your father pays and how much the council pays?

xylophone said:

If the person paying the top-up fee can no longer afford to pay it, the council has to carry out a new care needs assessment before deciding what to do. They won’t be able simply to move you to a cheaper care home to resolve the need for the top-up fee. 

While this is true I feel it doesn't quite paint the full picture. The council isn't obliged to pay the top up fee unless there are no other alternatives. Unless the care needs are very specific it's likely they'll be another suitable care home that accepts the council rate and he'll be moved. Him being happy/settled there won't be a sufficient reason. There are very few circumstances where the council will pay the top up fee.

OP, ultimately it appears you have two choices. Firstly contact the council/care home and inform them the top up can no longer be paid but accept it's likely he'll be moved. The other choice is to sell the house and use the money to fund the care but accept this will only buy you a few years and option 1 might become the only option in the future. Even in a best case scenario option 2 will leave your mum a lot worse off.