Damaged kitchen worktop - landlord wants to replace?

lookstraightahead

eve824 said:

Have you got accidental damage on your contents insurance? Worth a try to see if it is covered?

Ah yes this is a very good point for the op 

lookstraightahead

tangerine27 said:

Mahsroh said:

tangerine27 said:

AdrianC said:

tangerine27 said:
But surely if we damage something it needs fixing?

Not necessarily.
Once you move out, then the landlord may decide that the kitchen worktop functions perfectly well with the chip in it. But that doesn't let you off the hook for the cost of the damage... You still did the damage.

That doesn't sound entirely true? Why should we pay them for damage if they aren't going to fix it and admit that it's not even so bad they aren't going to fix it?

That's their prerogative. I've made a contribution to replace a damaged carpet in a previous house I rented. I know for a fact the LL didn't replace the carpet. We agreed an amount of compensation for damage that i'd caused. If the LL chose to add it to his holiday fund and leave the damaged carpet in place then that's his decision. 

That's fine - but we are not paying them £4000 for them to just put in their bank account. They can have a repair, on us, or nothing at all.

As said, this isn't how it happens. You can't tell them what to spend their 'compensation' on, unfortunately. Like any compensation.

tangerine27

dimbo61 said:

I lost the will to live and read all the replies.
The first thing that comes to mind is who in their right mind puts a £4,000 worktop in the kitchen of a rental property / HMO
Second the Landlord and Lettings agents can't claim betterment ! 
So unless the Landlady spent thousands on the property just before you moved in and has both all the invoices and receipts to prove this plus a Video inventory and written report

The same landlord who also *claims* we have a £30k staircase - massive eyeroll!!
Thanks, that’s the response I was hoping for - just fingers crossed!!

tangerine27

eve824 said:

Have you got accidental damage on your contents insurance? Worth a try to see if it is covered?

Missed this comment - sadly I don’t think any of us have contents insurance ☹️

It’s silly I know, but I know personally I just can’t afford it right now, (yes I know it makes sense in the long run, but I’m stuck in a property that I hadn’t expected to lose my job while living here). Not sure why the others don’t, but I might ask them if any of them do!
Edit: I realise this is lame. Going to look into it tonight - obviously know I couldn’t claim the repair but at least may help in the future

tangerine27

lookstraightahead said:

tangerine27 said:

Mahsroh said:

tangerine27 said:

AdrianC said:

tangerine27 said:
But surely if we damage something it needs fixing?

Not necessarily.
Once you move out, then the landlord may decide that the kitchen worktop functions perfectly well with the chip in it. But that doesn't let you off the hook for the cost of the damage... You still did the damage.

That doesn't sound entirely true? Why should we pay them for damage if they aren't going to fix it and admit that it's not even so bad they aren't going to fix it?

That's their prerogative. I've made a contribution to replace a damaged carpet in a previous house I rented. I know for a fact the LL didn't replace the carpet. We agreed an amount of compensation for damage that i'd caused. If the LL chose to add it to his holiday fund and leave the damaged carpet in place then that's his decision. 

That's fine - but we are not paying them £4000 for them to just put in their bank account. They can have a repair, on us, or nothing at all.

As said, this isn't how it happens. You can't tell them what to spend their 'compensation' on, unfortunately. Like any compensation.

It’s such a pain!!

GDB2222

tangerine27 said:

dimbo61 said:

I lost the will to live and read all the replies.
The first thing that comes to mind is who in their right mind puts a £4,000 worktop in the kitchen of a rental property / HMO
Second the Landlord and Lettings agents can't claim betterment ! 
So unless the Landlady spent thousands on the property just before you moved in and has both all the invoices and receipts to prove this plus a Video inventory and written report

The same landlord who also *claims* we have a £30k staircase - massive eyeroll!!
Thanks, that’s the response I was hoping for - just fingers crossed!!

It's perfectly clear that that is the response you want to hear. But, the person giving it is not the adjudicator at the deposit service. Nor the judge if it goes to court. It's just what you said it is - the response you want to hear. 

@AdrianC and others have been telling you the settled law on this, but that's not the response you want to hear, and you've now had one or two other responses that are more to your liking. I'm trying to work out in what way that makes you better off?

Out of interest, from what you've said about your landlord, it sounds quite likely that she will replace the worktop and spend £4k. Will you then be happy to pay it? 

pinkshoes

Have you got your own quote for a full replacement yet? (Rather than a repair).

Even covering travelling costs for granite companies further away you will be able to get a cheaper quote than £4k.

Would the damaged piece have any second hand value?

tangerine27

GDB2222 said:

tangerine27 said:

dimbo61 said:

I lost the will to live and read all the replies.
The first thing that comes to mind is who in their right mind puts a £4,000 worktop in the kitchen of a rental property / HMO
Second the Landlord and Lettings agents can't claim betterment ! 
So unless the Landlady spent thousands on the property just before you moved in and has both all the invoices and receipts to prove this plus a Video inventory and written report

The same landlord who also *claims* we have a £30k staircase - massive eyeroll!!
Thanks, that’s the response I was hoping for - just fingers crossed!!

It's perfectly clear that that is the response you want to hear. But, the person giving it is not the adjudicator at the deposit service. Nor the judge if it goes to court. It's just what you said it is - the response you want to hear. 

@AdrianC and others have been telling you the settled law on this, but that's not the response you want to hear, and you've now had one or two other responses that are more to your liking. I'm trying to work out in what way that makes you better off?

Out of interest, from what you've said about your landlord, it sounds quite likely that she will replace the worktop and spend £4k. Will you then be happy to pay it? 

Well Adrian comes across as a landlord himself, saying things like “don’t cause £4K worth of damage” as though we’re running around smashing the house up. We’re good tenants who have been put in an unfortunate situation by 1 person we live with who won’t own up, meaning the rest of us are put through the stress of this. Can you forgive me for saying that I was hoping that people would agree that the landlord is in the wrong? Considering my share of the £4K would actually be my life savings at this point in time?

Well it seems like most people are agreed it's best to leave it to the adjudicators, rather than letting my landlord do anything right now mid-tenancy, and I can hardly see them saying that £4k for a tiny little chip is reasonable when a repair would do. So no, I won't then be happy to pay it.

tangerine27

pinkshoes said:

Have you got your own quote for a full replacement yet? (Rather than a repair).

Even covering travelling costs for granite companies further away you will be able to get a cheaper quote than £4k.

Would the damaged piece have any second hand value?

No, we honestly thought it wouldn't come to that, the LA is off getting their own repair quotes to give to the landlord so we will see what happens there - yes we thought £4k was very unreasonable and actually rereading the LAs email, it does say "the landlord says" not "here is a quote the landlord has" so I honestly think its a bit of greediness/wishful thinking there.
The worktop is perfectly usable, and the chip isn't all that noticeable (would be noticed at the end of tenancy though, hence why we told them). With a repair it could easily be sold on as "refurbished" or something like that, I'd imagine.

AdrianC

tangerine27 said:

Well Adrian comes across as a landlord himself, saying things like “don’t cause £4K worth of damage” as though we’re running around smashing the house up. We’re good tenants who have been put in an unfortunate situation by 1 person we live with who won’t own up

Let me try again...

You, plural, are the tenants. You have a joint tenancy. Your contract is joint and several - any costs or losses are recoverable from you as a group, and if just one of you is traceable and solvent, then that one person is liable for the entirety of the debt.

You, plural, are liable for damage above and beyond fair wear and tear. We can all agree on that, right?
I don't think you'd claim this falls within fair wear and tear.

So, yes, you (plural) have caused damage alleged by the landlord to be £4k-worth.

Yes, it was actually one of the individuals who caused the damage, not you (plural), and I'm sure not you (personally) - but as far as the tenancy is concerned, that's not the landlord's problem. If one of your housemates is too much of a coward to own up to it, that's a breach of the bond of trust between you individually. When you (personally) signed that joint tenancy, you (personally) agreed to be legally part of that "you (plural)" single unit by the contract.

Never mind what the landlord is actually asking you (plural) to pay. That's irrelevant.
What's relevant is what bill is legally enforceable, either through deposit deduction or a small claim.
If you (plural) are facing a legally enforceable bill of £4k, then it's because the damage is serious enough to be deemed £4k-worth by an independent adjudicator - more than that, one on whom the balance of doubt is in your favour. The landlord must PROVE both the presence and the value of the damage to be granted one single penny.
If the damage is not £4k-worth, then you (plural) will not be required to pay £4k.

So... if you (plural) are facing a £4k bill, then that can ONLY be because you (plural) have been judged by that independent adjudicator to have caused £4k-worth of damage.

With all of that, do you agree with me that the easiest way to not face a £4k bill is not to cause £4k-worth of damage?

So, having agreed the principle, let's look at the actual incident here...
Is THIS chip to THIS worktop stone £4k-worth of damage?
In your opinion, no.
In the landlord's opinion, yes.
But neither of those opinions actually matter. The opinion that matters is that of the tenancy arbitrators once you move out. Then, if the damage is more than your deposit, a court.

It's likely that your deposit is five weeks, so if your rent is £40k/year, the deposit will be nearly £4k. Which wouldn't leave much of this bill to be reclaimed by a court if and when your deposit is lost for damage, assuming this is the only damage. So, given that a court are likely to throw a claim out if the deposit adjudicators rule in your favour, this really is just about the deposit adjudicators.

I mentioned the firm that repaired our chip, earlier in the thread. By coincidence, I came across their quote - £75+vat (10yrs ago), and, yes, it came with a warning of no guarantee of invisibility. It wasn't invisible - but it was bloody good.

And, no, it's not as simple as the stone can be "sold on as refurbished" - the stone is cut to fit precisely into the kitchen. Once the kitchen is finished, bar the worktop, wood templates are made on-site, and the stone cut and polished back at the stone supplier's workshop to fit precisely. This involves some pretty damn serious tools, precisely because stone is a very hard material. That used bit can't just be used easily in another kitchen... The cost to rework it would exceed any resale value.