Personal Allowances - Ouch!

DragonQ

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

Ha, talk about a straw man. Technically debt doesn't need to be paid but to avoid a major crash in our economy it does have to be paid eventually. As in, decades from now. Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. Instead, we had austerity and the worst recovery of the major nations. Now we are forced to borrow due to a pandemic and are in an even worse position because a lot of that borrowed money isn't going to improve the economy, rather just keep it from drowning.

In any case, the big problem is that fundamental (no doubt called "radical" but opposers) change is required to our economic system and the Tories have never and will never deliver that. Yet another budget that just tinkers with existing norms so that big business and the wealthy are still happy. For example, what good is raising corporation tax if the biggest corporations continue to hide profits in tax havens? It doesn't help at all. The wealthiest individuals and companies made huge gains during 2020 while most people fall between the "mild annoyance" and "lost everything" categories. That cannot be acceptable.

In addition, why does the government perpetually inflate the property bubble by introducing stamp duty holidays and allowing people that cannot otherwise afford homes at their current prices to borrow even more to be able to buy them? Does the Tory government really not understand the notion of supply and demand?? No wonder my wife and I, in a top 2-4% earning household (depending on what data is used) and already on the property ladder, cannot afford a nice family home in the south east!

The budget does some good things to help with the tail end of the pandemic and finally introduces tax bands for corporation tax (kind of) but it does nothing to address the fundamental issues.

zagfles

ZeroSum said:

zagfles said:

ZeroSum said:

They've also froze the NI ones & thereby breaking an election promise.
Which strangely hasn't been mentioned, think people seem to forget about NI which discussing tax

No they haven't. They promised to raise the NI primary threshold to £9500, which they did last year. They also mentioned some vague "ambition" to eventually raise the PT to £12500 but no target date

Increasing it to 12,500 was to be done by the end of the election term

Yes I seem to remember hearing that, but the date wasn't in the manifesto. But even if they said that they clearly haven't broken the promise yet, there's over 3 years to go! The NI PT hasn't been frozen, only the UEL in line with the higher rate tax threshold.

zagfles

talexuser said:

I can't buy the argument that the credit crunch would have been fine if the Tories had been in charge, every deregulation of the banks did not far enough for them in those days, and the national debt actually fell under Blair,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt
only shooting up in 2008 with the crunch, borrowing up till then a similar level to previous governments.
https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/reference/fiscal-policy-causes-of-a-budget-deficit

The problem wasn't the credit crunch itself, of course it was global and would have happened regardless of who was in power. They did quite a good job handling the crunch itself, especially Alistair Darling.

The problem was that public spending increased in the 5 years or so up to the credit crunch in line with high credit fuelled growth, or even higher, because Brown though he'd abolished boom and bust.

So called "austerity" was the reversal of some of those increases, rather than paying off the bailouts etc. If the increases hadn't happened, then "austerity" wouldn't have been needed. 

Thrugelmir

DragonQ said:

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

 Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. 

Economies are too complex to be run on hindsight alone. Interest rates are artificially low as the impact of the GFC hasn't been fully addressed. 

zagfles

DragonQ said:

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

Ha, talk about a straw man. Technically debt doesn't need to be paid but to avoid a major crash in our economy it does have to be paid eventually. As in, decades from now. Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. Instead, we had austerity and the worst recovery of the major nations. Now we are forced to borrow due to a pandemic and are in an even worse position because a lot of that borrowed money isn't going to improve the economy, rather just keep it from drowning.

In any case, the big problem is that fundamental (no doubt called "radical" but opposers) change is required to our economic system and the Tories have never and will never deliver that. Yet another budget that just tinkers with existing norms so that big business and the wealthy are still happy. For example, what good is raising corporation tax if the biggest corporations continue to hide profits in tax havens? It doesn't help at all. The wealthiest individuals and companies made huge gains during 2020 while most people fall between the "mild annoyance" and "lost everything" categories. That cannot be acceptable.

In addition, why does the government perpetually inflate the property bubble by introducing stamp duty holidays and allowing people that cannot otherwise afford homes at their current prices to borrow even more to be able to buy them? Does the Tory government really not understand the notion of supply and demand?? No wonder my wife and I, in a top 2-4% earning household (depending on what data is used) and already on the property ladder, cannot afford a nice family home in the south east!

The budget does some good things to help with the tail end of the pandemic and finally introduces tax bands for corporation tax (kind of) but it does nothing to address the fundamental issues.

I think you need to check your facts. Lots of major economies fared far worse, with double dip recessions.

The big rise in house prices occurred in 1997-2007, under Labour. They had similar daft schemes which inflated house prices, like "key worker" discounts, plus they set the BoE an inflation target (RPIX, then CPI) which excluded house price inflation.  House prices are lower in real terms now than they were in 2007.

DragonQ

zagfles said:

DragonQ said:

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

Ha, talk about a straw man. Technically debt doesn't need to be paid but to avoid a major crash in our economy it does have to be paid eventually. As in, decades from now. Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. Instead, we had austerity and the worst recovery of the major nations. Now we are forced to borrow due to a pandemic and are in an even worse position because a lot of that borrowed money isn't going to improve the economy, rather just keep it from drowning.

In any case, the big problem is that fundamental (no doubt called "radical" but opposers) change is required to our economic system and the Tories have never and will never deliver that. Yet another budget that just tinkers with existing norms so that big business and the wealthy are still happy. For example, what good is raising corporation tax if the biggest corporations continue to hide profits in tax havens? It doesn't help at all. The wealthiest individuals and companies made huge gains during 2020 while most people fall between the "mild annoyance" and "lost everything" categories. That cannot be acceptable.

In addition, why does the government perpetually inflate the property bubble by introducing stamp duty holidays and allowing people that cannot otherwise afford homes at their current prices to borrow even more to be able to buy them? Does the Tory government really not understand the notion of supply and demand?? No wonder my wife and I, in a top 2-4% earning household (depending on what data is used) and already on the property ladder, cannot afford a nice family home in the south east!

The budget does some good things to help with the tail end of the pandemic and finally introduces tax bands for corporation tax (kind of) but it does nothing to address the fundamental issues.

I think you need to check your facts. Lots of major economies fared far worse, with double dip recessions.

The big rise in house prices occurred in 1997-2007, under Labour. They had similar daft schemes which inflated house prices, like "key worker" discounts, plus they set the BoE an inflation target (RPIX, then CPI) which excluded house price inflation.  House prices are lower in real terms now than they were in 2007.

Huh? I didn't talk about the previous Labour government. I'm not a Labour sycophant, they made plenty of mistakes also, but you can't say "check your facts" and then not dispute anything I said and instead deflect. In the south east, the average price was £320k in 2008, £262k in 2009, and £340k now (in 2020 GBP). Given all the promises of house building that's pretty poor and remember that wages now are still lower than they were in 2008 after taking inflation into account.

I'm pretty sure the UK had a double-dip recession after 2008 but maybe it was narrowly avoided according to the criteria, I can't remember.

MaxiRobriguez

DragonQ said:

zagfles said:

DragonQ said:

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

Ha, talk about a straw man. Technically debt doesn't need to be paid but to avoid a major crash in our economy it does have to be paid eventually. As in, decades from now. Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. Instead, we had austerity and the worst recovery of the major nations. Now we are forced to borrow due to a pandemic and are in an even worse position because a lot of that borrowed money isn't going to improve the economy, rather just keep it from drowning.

In any case, the big problem is that fundamental (no doubt called "radical" but opposers) change is required to our economic system and the Tories have never and will never deliver that. Yet another budget that just tinkers with existing norms so that big business and the wealthy are still happy. For example, what good is raising corporation tax if the biggest corporations continue to hide profits in tax havens? It doesn't help at all. The wealthiest individuals and companies made huge gains during 2020 while most people fall between the "mild annoyance" and "lost everything" categories. That cannot be acceptable.

In addition, why does the government perpetually inflate the property bubble by introducing stamp duty holidays and allowing people that cannot otherwise afford homes at their current prices to borrow even more to be able to buy them? Does the Tory government really not understand the notion of supply and demand?? No wonder my wife and I, in a top 2-4% earning household (depending on what data is used) and already on the property ladder, cannot afford a nice family home in the south east!

The budget does some good things to help with the tail end of the pandemic and finally introduces tax bands for corporation tax (kind of) but it does nothing to address the fundamental issues.

I think you need to check your facts. Lots of major economies fared far worse, with double dip recessions.

The big rise in house prices occurred in 1997-2007, under Labour. They had similar daft schemes which inflated house prices, like "key worker" discounts, plus they set the BoE an inflation target (RPIX, then CPI) which excluded house price inflation.  House prices are lower in real terms now than they were in 2007.

Huh? I didn't talk about the previous Labour government. I'm not a Labour sycophant, they made plenty of mistakes also, but you can't say "check your facts" and then not dispute anything I said and instead deflect. In the south east, the average price was £320k in 2008, £262k in 2009, and £340k now (in 2020 GBP). Given all the promises of house building that's pretty poor and remember that wages now are still lower than they were in 2008 after taking inflation into account.

I'm pretty sure the UK had a double-dip recession after 2008 but maybe it was narrowly avoided according to the criteria, I can't remember.

It was narrowly missed, helped by a mix of the Tory government of the day relaxing the pace of the spending cuts when the recovery slowed, alongside an initial large decline concentrating losses into one quarter making other future quarters better than they otherwise would have been - ie, a technicality.

zagfles

DragonQ said:

zagfles said:

DragonQ said:

csgohan4 said:

basically everyone is unhappy with the budget, stealth tax rises and corp tax rises.

But that debt needs to be paid and labour seems to think we should carry on spending like it was blank cheque.  

Ha, talk about a straw man. Technically debt doesn't need to be paid but to avoid a major crash in our economy it does have to be paid eventually. As in, decades from now. Interest rates have been low for a decade and it was the perfect time to borrow to invest in the economy to promote a good recovery from the financial crash. Instead, we had austerity and the worst recovery of the major nations. Now we are forced to borrow due to a pandemic and are in an even worse position because a lot of that borrowed money isn't going to improve the economy, rather just keep it from drowning.

In any case, the big problem is that fundamental (no doubt called "radical" but opposers) change is required to our economic system and the Tories have never and will never deliver that. Yet another budget that just tinkers with existing norms so that big business and the wealthy are still happy. For example, what good is raising corporation tax if the biggest corporations continue to hide profits in tax havens? It doesn't help at all. The wealthiest individuals and companies made huge gains during 2020 while most people fall between the "mild annoyance" and "lost everything" categories. That cannot be acceptable.

In addition, why does the government perpetually inflate the property bubble by introducing stamp duty holidays and allowing people that cannot otherwise afford homes at their current prices to borrow even more to be able to buy them? Does the Tory government really not understand the notion of supply and demand?? No wonder my wife and I, in a top 2-4% earning household (depending on what data is used) and already on the property ladder, cannot afford a nice family home in the south east!

The budget does some good things to help with the tail end of the pandemic and finally introduces tax bands for corporation tax (kind of) but it does nothing to address the fundamental issues.

I think you need to check your facts. Lots of major economies fared far worse, with double dip recessions.

The big rise in house prices occurred in 1997-2007, under Labour. They had similar daft schemes which inflated house prices, like "key worker" discounts, plus they set the BoE an inflation target (RPIX, then CPI) which excluded house price inflation.  House prices are lower in real terms now than they were in 2007.

Huh? I didn't talk about the previous Labour government. I'm not a Labour sycophant, they made plenty of mistakes also, but you can't say "check your facts" and then not dispute anything I said and instead deflect. In the south east, the average price was £320k in 2008, £262k in 2009, and £340k now (in 2020 GBP). Given all the promises of house building that's pretty poor and remember that wages now are still lower than they were in 2008 after taking inflation into account.

I'm pretty sure the UK had a double-dip recession after 2008 but maybe it was narrowly avoided according to the criteria, I can't remember.

The fact I was disputing was the "worst recovery of the major nations". It certainly wasn't. There was no recession in the UK post 2009, whereas there was in a lot of other major countries inc the EU overall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession_in_Europe

Housing policies of both Labour and Tories were daft, there's no real difference. Brown started off with good intentions, in his first budget in 1997 he promised not to let house prices get out of control and repeat the Tories mistakes (this was when negative equity was a recent big issue), but he did exactly that and let house prices get totally out of control. Probably because he saw how politically advantageous it was - loads of extra income from stamp duty, IHT etc plus it made stupid people feel happy even if they have no intention of downsizing and releasing their wealth. Applying CGT to owner occupied with carry forwards would dampen house price inflation but neither would dare do that.

House prices overall are lower in real terms than in 2007. In some regions eg the SE they might be higher but just picking out a region to suit an argument looks like cherry picking.

Real wages have followed a similar although flattened trend to house prices and the economy in general, peaking just before the financial crisis. Basically in line with the economy, rather than anything else (just like now!):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019

DragonQ

The fact I was disputing was the "worst recovery of the major nations". It certainly wasn't. There was no recession in the UK post 2009, whereas there was in a lot of other major countries inc the EU overall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession_in_Europe

Housing policies of both Labour and Tories were daft, there's no real difference. Brown started off with good intentions, in his first budget in 1997 he promised not to let house prices get out of control and repeat the Tories mistakes (this was when negative equity was a recent big issue), but he did exactly that and let house prices get totally out of control. Probably because he saw how politically advantageous it was - loads of extra income from stamp duty, IHT etc plus it made stupid people feel happy even if they have no intention of downsizing and releasing their wealth. Applying CGT to owner occupied with carry forwards would dampen house price inflation but neither would dare do that.

House prices overall are lower in real terms than in 2007. In some regions eg the SE they might be higher but just picking out a region to suit an argument looks like cherry picking.

Real wages have followed a similar although flattened trend to house prices and the economy in general, peaking just before the financial crisis. Basically in line with the economy, rather than anything else (just like now!):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019

There's more to a recovery than whether there was another recession though. GDP growth has been slow ever since 2009 in the UK, productivity has flatlined, wages are lower in real terms. The average UK house price is identical to pre-financial crash when adjusted for inflation (according to https://propertydata.co.uk/charts/house-prices) which still makes them less affordable now since real wages are lower.

I accept your arguments that the previous Labour government was also bad when it came to housing policy; the reason I mentioned the south east is purely because I live there, it certainly counts as cherry picking but my overall point was that the a family with a high household income shouldn't be struggling to afford a good house in any region of the country, and successive failures on housing policy is the primary cause of that. All we got in the budget is more bad housing policy.

MaxiRobriguez

DragonQ said:

The fact I was disputing was the "worst recovery of the major nations". It certainly wasn't. There was no recession in the UK post 2009, whereas there was in a lot of other major countries inc the EU overall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession_in_Europe

Housing policies of both Labour and Tories were daft, there's no real difference. Brown started off with good intentions, in his first budget in 1997 he promised not to let house prices get out of control and repeat the Tories mistakes (this was when negative equity was a recent big issue), but he did exactly that and let house prices get totally out of control. Probably because he saw how politically advantageous it was - loads of extra income from stamp duty, IHT etc plus it made stupid people feel happy even if they have no intention of downsizing and releasing their wealth. Applying CGT to owner occupied with carry forwards would dampen house price inflation but neither would dare do that.

House prices overall are lower in real terms than in 2007. In some regions eg the SE they might be higher but just picking out a region to suit an argument looks like cherry picking.

Real wages have followed a similar although flattened trend to house prices and the economy in general, peaking just before the financial crisis. Basically in line with the economy, rather than anything else (just like now!):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019

There's more to a recovery than whether there was another recession though. GDP growth has been slow ever since 2009 in the UK, productivity has flatlined, wages are lower in real terms. The average UK house price is identical to pre-financial crash when adjusted for inflation (according to https://propertydata.co.uk/charts/house-prices) which still makes them less affordable now since real wages are lower.

I accept your arguments that the previous Labour government was also bad when it came to housing policy; the reason I mentioned the south east is purely because I live there, it certainly counts as cherry picking but my overall point was that the a family with a high household income shouldn't be struggling to afford a good house in any region of the country, and successive failures on housing policy is the primary cause of that. All we got in the budget is more bad housing policy.

My partner and I earn more than double the average household, have a good 50% equity in our current home and would like to move to a 4 bed detached in a nice area with good schools but we're completely priced out of it. 

Posters may scoff that a 4 bed detached house in a nice area shouldn't be cheap, but we're talking about ones that would need work, in the East Midlands.
 
To afford the house we want in the area we want we would need both incomes to be in the 94th percentile - and even then it would be a stretch, we wouldn't have much left over.  Yet the houses we see are nowhere near 94th percentile in terms of desirability, maybe 75th at best.

Housing stock is an absolute mess.