PCN recieved after using valid visitors parking permit

Hi Forum i wonder if you could give me some advise in December 2020 while visiting family on a housing estate in Romford i was ticketed after placing a valid and correctly filled out parking permit in my windscreen. I was not aware at the time that i had received a PCN until one arrived in the post some time later. The PCN did not give an exact reason for the PCN but stated that i had parked in such a way that i had breached their terms and conditions. I appealed the PCN with the Parking operator CPM requesting the specific  detail's of the breach of their term and conditions they alleged i had committed. CPM rejected my appeal without really addressing the nature of my concerns. While only making vague references regarding the PCN being issued because of the way i had parked breached their terms and conditions. 
I then appealed to the IAS in the hope that i might receive a fairer decision how wrong could i have been and if i had known the outcome i wouldn't have bothered wasting my  time. Despite the mitigating circumstances and overwhelming supporting evidence  i presented, my appeal was declined. It was only at this point that i was made partially  aware of the real  reason for the PCN presented in the summary of the IAS decision and CPM supporting evidence. claiming that i was parked in the wrong area for the permit i had used. However on the permit i used  it did not give any information on restricted parking areas and the signage near the bay i had parked in did not give any information either. also the bay i had parked my vehicle in did not have any marking's or information to state what type of bay it was or used for.  the only information available was signage across the road from where i was parked that mainly stated terms and conditions and nothing more. after contacting the Housing association to make a formal complaint regarding this matter. I was informed by the housing association that the reason i was issued the PCN was because i had parked in the wrong Zone. Apparently the estate is split into two Zones, Red and green Zone 
Red Zone being being the only zone designated for visitors permit parking. However the permit i used nor the the signage did not contain any information regarding zonal parking. when i pointed this out to the housing association i was informed by the association that all residents were informed some time ago by letter regarding the zonal parking 
 system.
And the onus is on the resident to inform visitors about the parking system in place. despite my family member admitting that he had never been informed of any such parking system by letter or any other means.

at present i am refusing to pay the outstanding amount after having both my appeals to the CPM and IAS rejected and i am willing to take it to court if need be but would like to know what the forum thinks. Do i have grounds to fight it if it goes to court? as i believe the information regarding  zonal parking should be clearly displayed in their terms and conditions. and on the parking permit. And visitors should not be expected to get it as second hand information from residents

I would appreciate any thoughts and advised on this matter.

Thanks 

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Replies

  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    Please would you add some paragraphs to the wall of text. It is so difficult to read. I for one won't (we have to read hundreds of these posts every day). 

    Are you doing this on a mobile phone?  If so, you're pretty much on a loser trying to use this forum and its resources; some are impossible to access via phone.  
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
  • Mr_T_sammyMr_T_sammy Forumite
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    First Post
    My apologies for the my first post it being a bit of a cluttered mess.


    Hi Forum this is my first post

    I wonder if you could give me some advise in December 2020 while visiting family on a housing estate in Romford i was ticketed after placing a valid and correctly filled parking permit in my windscreen. I was not aware at the time that i had received a PCN until one arrived in the post time later.


    The PCN did not give an exact reason for the PCN but stated that i had parked in such a way that i had breached their terms and conditions.

    I appealed the PCN with the Parking operator CPM requesting the specific  detail's of the breach of their term and conditions they alleged i had committed.  CPM rejected my appeal without really addressing the nature of my concerns. While only making vague references regarding the PCN being issued stating that it was because of the way i had parked i had breached their terms and conditions. 


    I then appealed to the IAS in the hope that i might receive a fairer decision how wrong could i have been and if i had known the outcome i wouldn't have bothered wasting my  time.

    Despite the mitigating circumstances and overwhelming supporting evidence  i presented, my appeal was declined.
    It was only at this point that i was made partially  aware of the real  reason for the PCN.  This was presented in the summary of the IAS decision and CPM supporting evidence. claiming that i was parked in the wrong area for the permit i had used.


    However on the permit i used  it did not give any information on restricted parking areas and the signage near the bay i had parked in did not give any information either. Also the bay where  my vehicle was parked in did not have any marking's or information to state what type of bay it was or used for. 

    The only information available was signage across the road from where i was parked that  stated terms and conditions and nothing more.


    So i then contacting the Housing association that the parking operator is contracted by to make a formal complaint regarding the matter and was informed by the housing association that the reason i was issued the PCN was because i had parked in the wrong Zone. Apparently the estate is split into two Zones, Red and green Zone.


    Red Zone being the only zone designated for visitors permit parking. However the permit i used or signage did not contain any information regarding zonal parking area's 


    So i pointed this fact out to the housing association, and was informed that all residents were notified some time ago by letter regarding the zonal parking system, and the onus is on the resident to inform visitors about the parking system in place. after after talking to the family member i had visited  he informed me  that he had never been notified of any such parking system in place by letter or any other means and he has lived on the estate since 2018.


    At present i am unwilling to pay the increased outstanding amount after having both my appeals rejected by  CPM and IAS.

    I am willing to take it  to court to prove my case if need be, but would like to know what the forum thinks? 
    Do i have grounds to fight it if it goes to court?

    As i believe the information regarding  zonal parking should be clearly displayed in their terms and conditions and on the parking permit. as visitors should not be expected to get that information second hand from residents

    I would appreciate any thoughts and advised on this matter.

    Thanks 
  • edited 24 February at 9:51PM
    FruitcakeFruitcake Forumite
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    edited 24 February at 9:51PM
    Get pics of the site and signage, covid regs permitting.

    From where did you obtain the permit? What instructions if any came with it? That should be your focus now, as well as further complaints that you were not given the necessary information to prevent this scamvoice from occurring.
    Ask the person being visited to look at their lease/tenancy agreement to see what it says about parking, permits, paying a third party scammer that is not a party to their residential contract, and court claims.
    What it doesn't say is just as important.


    Other than that, wait to see if the scammers issue a court claim, which I believe they will. You will need a copy of the lease/tenancy agreement for evidence.
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  • Mr_T_sammyMr_T_sammy Forumite
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    I have photos of the bay that I parked in plus

    I have also kept the parking permit as evidence which bares no information regarding the parking zones.


    I also have a picture of the  signage with the stated  terms and conditions which has no mention of parking zones in it.

  • JohnershJohnersh Forumite
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    Keep your powder dry. It's for them to prove breach of contract.

    If the evidence is as you say it is, the claim is misconceived even if they have now zoned the car park. 

    If they chase again, I'd ask them to confirm in writing how the terms were breached if that is the basis upon which they claim to be entitled to payment.

    This is likely to be a case where admitting who was driving and defending on that basis is both easier and produces a more compelling witness statement. 

  • edited 25 February at 12:11AM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 25 February at 12:11AM
    Yes, and you have as good a case as everyone here and we see wins reported 99% of the time.  Yes, you can defend and win.
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  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    Just a bit late to this, but thank you for paragraphing your original post (as per my request) which makes things much more readable and, importantly, more understandable. You've already had excellent advice above from three of the forum heavyweights. 

    This is winnable, but you will probably have to run the full race in order to do so. It's such a sad state of affairs that a private parking firm can simply stick a ticket on your windscreen (or send a letter through the post), then sit back, handing you the ticking time bomb to defuse, or it blows up in your face. 

    If you want to do some advance prep for an almost inevitable court claim -UKCPM have been the country's most litigious operator for the past couple of years - please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, second post, which covers the entire court process from start to finish. You seem to be someone not likely to succumb to the bullying and extorting nature of this vile sector, so get ahead of their game, know what you have to do, and be ready for whatever they throw your way. That's how to beat them. Always support here as you go through the journey. 
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
  • Mr_T_sammyMr_T_sammy Forumite
    5 Posts
    First Post
    Thank you for your comments and advise. I have read most of the information on the website regarding what will likely happen next so I'm very much informed. 

    I guess now it's just a waiting game to see what they will do next. 
  • D_P_DanceD_P_Dance Forumite
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    Have you complained  to your MP?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Mr_T_sammyMr_T_sammy Forumite
    5 Posts
    First Post
    I have done so yet but I will be making a complaint to my local MP.
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