Dealing with PRA Group

BootsStuckintheMud

Hey all, I've been through this site a few times and there does seem to be a consensus that PRA Group are very difficult to negotiate with. But I couldn't find anything to help me move forward, so I thought I'd outline my position, in the hope of finding some useful advice. 
I racked up a lot of debt around 15-16 years ago. A small amount (about £5K) I had already, but the rest came when a then GF needed my help, I was in the middle of selling a house and had an offer that would have meant I had the debt more than covered (by a long way). Unfortunately the sale fell through and it took a year to find another decent offer (by which time I'd taken out more loans to keep me going and repaying the existing one) before my GF then left the country and despite all her promises to repay me, I've never had a penny. (You live and learn). 
By the time the house sold, I had over £65K in debts, which I brought down to about £57K from the profits on the sale (which was about £45K less than the original offer). 
I moved back with my parents for a year, set up a DMP through StepChange (I think they were called something else back then) and have been making payments ever since. 
About a year ago, from content on here, I wrote to all remaining creditors asking for a copy of the CCA. I received 3 replies saying they could not source it and 2 seem to have completely given up on the debt as a result. 
My current balance to all enforceable debts is a little over £24K. 
The PRA group have 3 of my accounts. 2 have been shown as enforceable (though I feel one of them is a little dubious, but will park that for now) the third, they agree, is unenforceable. 
I am now out of work (due to Covid circumstances) but through family and spousal support, I'm maintaining my DMP (which is currently set at £43 per month). But that would mean I wouldn't pay these debts off until 2068. 
My parents, however, have offered me some money if it will clear all the debts (but only if it will clear them all, not just one or two). Originally this was going to be £6K, but they have said they could stretch to £7K at a push. 
As the PRA group are the only creditors with more than one enforceable debt and they are the only ones pushing their unenforceable debt, I tried to negotiate with them first. 
This started last March and it is still going. 
Mostly I get copy and paste responses with slight editing. A couple of times their lack of replying to my specific questions has resulted in an official complaint procedure. And both times, they have ruled in my favour and credited my account (by about £20 usually) for the trouble. 

The crux of the issue is, whenever I submit an offer, they come back with a counter offer. 
They always insist on keeping all the accounts separate (and won't accept a single offer amount to clear all 3 of them). But I have been trying to be fair in my approach for all accounts (offering the same percentage for all enforceable debts). 

I started at 25% on all enforceable debts (which was about £6 in total) plus offering £90 to simply clear the unenforceable debt (this debt totals £2395). 

Through these offers, on at least 2 occasions, each of the debts had been marked with an 'acceptable offer' of 25% of the total owed. But not at the same time. So they might have said debt 1 could be settled for 25% but debt 2 for 45%. Then in a future offer, they would accept 40% for debt 1, but 25% for debt 2 etc. 

The amounts they are willing to accept bounce around all over the place. I've asked why and they have never given an answer that makes any sense (just that they can do it, but no justification for the logic behind it). 

But they have shown, historically, they are willing to accept 25% for these debts. 

Through this month, I had one person say she would look into this personally to see what she could do. By this point I had offered 28% for all enforceable debts (but still £90 for the unenforceable one, which I'm not making any payments to and have not done for around 10 months). I also stated that, they are welcome to distribute the total however, they see fit. So if they can accept less for one but need (for some reason) more for another, then they can assign it whichever way suits them (even if that means giving the unenforceable one more). But that I wanted to keep it that way so I could offer the 2 remaining creditors 28% as well, keeping everything fair and not favouring anyone. 

But, after 11 months of back and forth, it does feel like I'm having the same conversation over and over. 

If it is of use, the original debts were all with Lloyds Bank. The 2 enforceable debts were for an overdraft and a loan. The unenforceable one was for a credit card (they do have the document for this one, but it is smudged and completely illegible, so I don't see that ever changing). 

They are clearly able to accept these amounts, because they exceed amounts previously stated as acceptable. But whoever replies clearly just does whatever the computer tells them to do and they send a template answer with the computer generated figures. 

Could anyone suggest how to proceed with them? Or should I give up and just continue with the DMP? Or if anyone could even give me a reason as to why they would act this way, just for my own sanity. 

I fully understand they want to maximise the amount they can obtain. But when I'm offering them an amount that would take them a further 14 years to obtain through the DMP. History (15 years) shows my circumstances have not changed in that time and the payments to the DMP have only fluctuated by tiny amounts (I think the maximum it ever reached was £50 per month for one year, but has been as low as £40 per month). 

I would very much like to clear this to simply put it all behind me. It wouldn't make a huge difference to my life, but would just be a weight lifted. 

Even if I knew that the £7K would never cut it, but £8K would, I would have something to aim for. I only made the offer because it seemed possible to exceed amounts they had said they were willing to accept in the past (and more of the balance has been cleared since then, though not much). So there seemed to be a high degree of hope. 

Meantime, I've gone to one of the other creditors and offered 26%, so that, if they accept, I might have an extra £500 to put toward PRA in the hope that might get me over the line. 

I've lived with it for 15 years, so, if I can't move this forward, so be it. However, the idea of reaching my 60s and still paying this debt off is depressing. 

Any thoughts or advice would be fantastic. 

Thanks.

sourcrates

Cant read all of that, can you re-phrase your question in one sentence ?

Suseka97

Just to distill this a little...

Basically you have a set amount in your mind that you want to be able to settle all your debts, with 3 held by PRA and one of them is UE.  PRA are being irregular with their discount offers and you are trying to nail them down to a certain % and wonder why its not acceptable to them.  Well, the reality is they don't have to accept any form of discount and their variable offers at different times is simply, as you surmise, what a computer throws out based on some algorithm no-one can/will understand.  

You need to consider that when you speak to one of their reps, they are simply sticking to a script and it doesn't matter if one says they'll see what they can do, or just sticks with what the screen says - they are being paid to get in as much money as they can.  They are not interested in your situation or what you are trying to achieve.

I understand you are keen to put all of this behind and certainly not wanting for the DMP to run on for many more years.  A strategy I would employ is to stop making offers and stop your DMP payments to all creditors/DCAs.  You mention you are unemployed, so you should write and explain that due to your current employment status you will be suspending all payments and will review the situation when you return to work.  Then, after a good period of time (several months) see what offers are coming out of PRA and then reconsider your F&F strategy.   Don't try and tackle the PRA debts as a collective - if you get a good discount offer on one of the enforceable debts, take that (or negotiate) and start ticking them off.  Or, see if the non-PRA ones are up for settling first.  The PRA UE one, you should leave out of the discussions and only return to it at some point in the future if they are able to dig up the paperwork.    By staying in regular contact about the UE debt, you are resetting the statute barred clock each time.

BootsStuckintheMud

Suseka97 said:

Just to distill this a little...

Basically you have a set amount in your mind that you want to be able to settle all your debts, with 3 held by PRA and one of them is UE.  PRA are being irregular with their discount offers and you are trying to nail them down to a certain % and wonder why its not acceptable to them.  Well, the reality is they don't have to accept any form of discount and their variable offers at different times is simply, as you surmise, what a computer throws out based on some algorithm no-one can/will understand.  

You need to consider that when you speak to one of their reps, they are simply sticking to a script and it doesn't matter if one says they'll see what they can do, or just sticks with what the screen says - they are being paid to get in as much money as they can.  They are not interested in your situation or what you are trying to achieve.

I understand you are keen to put all of this behind and certainly not wanting for the DMP to run on for many more years.  A strategy I would employ is to stop making offers and stop your DMP payments to all creditors/DCAs.  You mention you are unemployed, so you should write and explain that due to your current employment status you will be suspending all payments and will review the situation when you return to work.  Then, after a good period of time (several months) see what offers are coming out of PRA and then reconsider your F&F strategy.   Don't try and tackle the PRA debts as a collective - if you get a good discount offer on one of the enforceable debts, take that (or negotiate) and start ticking them off.  Or, see if the non-PRA ones are up for settling first.  The PRA UE one, you should leave out of the discussions and only return to it at some point in the future if they are able to dig up the paperwork.    By staying in regular contact about the UE debt, you are resetting the statute barred clock each time.

Thanks for the reply. 
Although not what I'd hoped to here, that is useful. 

I had felt, if I kept pushing, I would eventually get to speak to someone at PRA who would be able to analyse the accounts  and take a view that was sensible for their business. (Like an underwriter for car insurance).

You appear to be suggesting that will never happen. And I will continue to be made offers based on some bizarre algorithm that, if I had to guess, is based more on how well they have done that month than any other logic (ie if they haven't brought much in that month, lower the amounts, if they have had a good month, pad the figures because they don't need settlements - though why all accounts don't go up and down together (ie at the same percentage level) I don't know. 

I'm not keep on stopping payments completely for the enforceable debts. A few years ago, one went astray (they were writing to the wrong address) and it went to a solicitor and got pretty hairy for a while. Something I'm not keep to repeat. 

But I will stop replying directly to their emails (which mention all 3 accounts) and only make mention of the 2 enforceable ones for now. The only downside there is, I can't possibly get that UE one cleared for 5 years. 

I have written to one of the other creditors and I will do the final one today. And, having receive offers of 25% already, from here on, anytime I see an offer of 25% I guess I'll just take it (though that was not the deal with my parents for getting the money, it was meant to be this was only if it would clear all debts, not just some of them). My worry with 'chipping away' at them was also that, if there was only one or two remaining, they will receive more of the DMP monthly and so be less incentivised to accept a lower offer.  

Suseka97

Okay, perhaps consider this, the worry with 'chipping away' at the debts can be resolved by self-managing your DMP.  You can then keep the PRA ones at the same amount, even if you've managed to pay off the others.  I know the way some DCAs respond to offers of payment makes no sense, but that's unfortunately how is a lot of the time.

I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to get the UE one cleared for 5 years.  But just to clarify all defaults fall off credit files 6 years from the date they were applied, irrespective of collection status and/or balances outstanding.

BootsStuckintheMud

Suseka97 said:

Okay, perhaps consider this, the worry with 'chipping away' at the debts can be resolved by self-managing your DMP.  You can then keep the PRA ones at the same amount, even if you've managed to pay off the others.  I know the way some DCAs respond to offers of payment makes no sense, but that's unfortunately how is a lot of the time.

I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to get the UE one cleared for 5 years.  But just to clarify all defaults fall off credit files 6 years from the date they were applied, irrespective of collection status and/or balances outstanding.

Thanks Suseka, 

I'd possibly consider self-managing if it were only PRA left. 

Alas, I have now received a reply from one of the other creditors (Link Financial) and they have declined my offer and counter offered with something almost double. I've gone back to them to let them know I don't have access to that amount, however, the offer I presented would (based on my DMP) take 109 months for them to receive. But if it is a no it is a no. I'll leave it open for 7 days for review, otherwise I will inform my parents that it has not been accepted and return to the DMP payments. 

When I did that with PRA (after my initial offer) they came back with the lower settlement offers. One of them was within 'budget' the other was not (based on percentages). Had I known how it was going to go, I would have accepted the one offer that was in budget and cleared that (because about 5 months later, they offered the other one at that percentage, but the first one was now higher).

It does feel like, all I can do is keep corresponding every month or so. Hope that one offer comes back on or below the percentage I can afford. Then access only that money from my parents (if they'll do that) and clear that one debt. Then hope the others follow suit eventually. And if it does get down to one or two, move to self-managing the debts in order to reduce the DMP payment (so they don't feel they are now better waiting it out). 

With regards the 5 years, I'm in Scotland. The debts are around 15-16 years old and no longer on my credit file. But you said, each time I referenced the UE debt I was resetting the statute barred clock. My understanding is that is 5 years in Scotland (and 6 in England). The problem being then, I would have to not mention it for 5 years as it lingers there. So, there is no possibility of having the debt removed for a nominal amount (I've offered £90 which is about 4% of the balance).

If there was any route to simply getting this lot cleared, ideally this year (just for my own sanity) I'd like to find it. 

Unfortunately dealing with these companies and the word sanity don't seem to mix. 

Suseka97

Yes, ideally it would be great if you could wrap this all up in one go - but, as you are finding that's highly unlikely given the way these companies operate.  I do think its best to just deal with one at a time and try not to let it bother you too much - you've come a long way already 

sourcrates

You have to think of it as more of a marathon, than a sprint, I've posted before about debt collection being a long drawn out process, the same applies to making settlement offers, nothing happens quickly.

PRA seem to operate a policy that differs from most other DPC`s, in that they want as much as possible in terms of return.

BootsStuckintheMud

Thanks, yes I hadn't expected it to be massively quick. When I first put in the offer, I did so with the feeling that it may just be dismissed completely as it was too low (but I was keeping the fact that I was still offering the equivalent of over 9 years worth of my current payments, in one go, as a genuine belief that would be a sensible route to take for them). 

I'll continue with things as long as it takes. But after 15-16 years, it would be nice to be able to brush it off and get on with my life. 

My main reason for posting here is, having read through as much as I can find on dealing with PRA, I've yet to find anyone who found a route to actually settling with them. But if someone had, I'd wondered if there was a route (such as asking to speak directly with a specific person, or a phrasing that could be used etc) that would push them forward. 

I did also wonder if they might think that my offer for settlement was due to something coming up that would see more money coming my way (which is not the case) and so they were holding out. But having been doing this dance for about a year now, I'd have thought that would have been put to rest. 

Meantime, though, as an update. They have come back, regarding my last correspondence, to list it as an official complaint. 

The past twice that happened, they upheld my complaint and credited my account, so perhaps that will happen again. And if it keeps happening, maybe they'll get the balance down low enough that my offer will be a high enough percentage for them to accept. 

BootsStuckintheMud

***Update***

Having pushed back with PRA again, and complained about the fact that the information I was being provided was a 'cut and paste' that made no logical sense, my complaint was forwarded to the complaints department. 

In reviewing my account several things happened.

1. The unenforceable debt was closed with no further action required.

2. The complaints handler found that a legal fee of over £700 was supposed to have been deducted from my account and had not been. This was therefore removed.

3. During a previous complaint, for similar reasons, I had been told my account would be credited by £25 for the inconvenience. This had not happened. As such, it was brought up to date. 

The conclusion reached was that my attempts to negotiate had been handled poorly. Therefore, in order to bring matters to a close, he upheld my offer of 28% of the balance and accepted that, on both accounts (now at a reduced balance), as !!!!!!. 

This has now been paid and I understand I will be receiving a letter confirming that all accounts have been given a zero balance and therefore settled. (I already have this as an email).


Interesting that, whilst this was difficult and a long process, PRA Group seemed to be at least open to the idea of settlement and reviewing offers. 

I have 2 remaining debts (technically 3, but one is currently in that unenforceable situation due to being unable to provide the signed paperwork). 

One is with Link Financial - I offered them 25% (at the same time as PRA group), they came back looking for about 50% and then said, they were happy to continue with the DMP (despite the fact it will take about 10 years to receive the same amount that way. 

The other is with Credit Solutions Ltd (originally a student loan) and I have been completely unable to find a route to contact that company. Every phone number is wrong (including the one provided by StepChange) and I can't find an email address. So I haven't been able to contact them period (about any of this). 

So, ultimately, whilst the day to day assistance from PRA Group, whilst friendly, was not helpful (and completely copy and paste), their procedures for complaints then put me in touch with a sensible human being who, ultimately, was very helpful in resolving this.