Air source heat pump feed back

googlefast

Has anyone here got Air source heat (ASH)? Is it a good idea to change gas boiler+radiators heating system to ASH considering that electricity prices have gone up so high recently? I'm looking into this because of the green homes grant, the best quote I've got so far is 11k for a small 2 bed house and it seem quite high, I'd have to pay 6k after the grant, not sure if it's a good investment!

matelodave

If you've got mains gas, then stay with it. TBH an Air Source Heat Pump is really only cost effective against LPG, storage heaters and peak rate heating. They are more expensive to run than mains gas and even oil at the moment.

I've had an ASHP for ten years and I'm more than happy with it but that's because our bungalow is reasonably well insulated (1999 double glazing, cavity wall of an indeterminate nature and good insulation in the loft) and the system was designed from the floor up (we have underfloor heating). It also suits our lifestyle as we are at home all day, so it can idle away gently all day and most of the night. They are no good for quick heat-up/cool down scenario's and you do need to understand how they work to get the best out of them.

I would change it for mains gas if it became available where I live.

We pay presently 12.25p/kwh for our leccy which equates to somewhere between 4-6p/kwh of heat output and we have enjoyed the benefit of the Renewable Heat Incentive for seven years and so recovered about £5k*. As mains gas is usually around 3p/kwh you'd almost never get your money back. That all might change in the future but personally I wouldn't.

* AFAIK if you get a grant then it will be deducted from any RHI you might be entitled to so beware of anyone who tells you that you'll get both.

googlefast

matelodave said:

We pay presently 12.25p/kwh for our leccy

That's actually quite good, our renewal rate is around 15p per kw and 20p daily charge, whereas gas is only 2.7p, so I guess that puts ASHP out of question. Are you familiar with solar at all? It might be a good idea to use the green homes grant for some solar panels considering the trajectory of leccy prices.

matelodave

Yes, I investigated solar (bot thermal and voltaic) but as I heat my place in the winter when the days are cold and short and the sun doesn't shine very much either then solar doesn't match my consumption profile (it's just about exactly opposite) so I doubt I'd get a great deal of benefit from it and the payback period, if any, would be longer than I'm likely to live

danrv

googlefast said:

the best quote I've got so far is 11k for a small 2 bed house and it seem quite high

Yes, just a bit. My 3 bed property is all electric with no radiators so I’d expect an ASHP/rad quote to exceed that.

Mintyrbc

googlefast said:

Has anyone here got Air source heat (ASH)? Is it a good idea to change gas boiler+radiators heating system to ASH considering that electricity prices have gone up so high recently? I'm looking into this because of the green homes grant, the best quote I've got so far is 11k for a small 2 bed house and it seem quite high, I'd have to pay 6k after the grant, not sure if it's a good investment!

I have had an ASHP installed under the GHG. The quote is similar to what mine was but then you have to look at what you are getting. Like other products there are premium and budget brands. The size of the system also has a bearing on cost. The plant you include with it also has an impact. So mine was a shade over £10k. That included a 12kw Viessmann ASHP, a 250l Joule cylinder with an inline 90l buffer tank. All the pipe work and the electrics controls between the heat pump and the buffer in the plant room and pipe work to hook up to the house side of the job.
In addition, there was stuff not covered under the installation quote. I had to insulate the plant room, run the electrics from the consumer to the plant room, instal all the house side heating and secondary return pumps, instal all the electric heating controls, update a lot of the plumbing in my 1890's cottage as it was redundant by todays standards, I'm due to have my cavity walls filled and I'm about too insulate my sub floor and instal underfloor heating.
My point here is its not as simple as just booking someone to instal a heat pump and expecting it to work, unless you live in a reasonably new house there will be work that needs to be done to retro fit the system. If you are unable to do that yourself it will cost you a fair amount.

googlefast

Mintyrbc said:

My point here is its not as simple as just booking someone to instal a heat pump and expecting it to work, unless you live in a reasonably new house there will be work that needs to be done to retro fit the system. If you are unable to do that yourself it will cost you a fair amount.

Tbh I'm not sure that the asking price is justified at all, last year my friend fitted his shop with 6 indoor air conditioning units and 3 outdoor condenser units for only 7k! I really think that companies are ripping people off because of GHG because I also looked into loft insulation, one company which works with the GHG scheme quoted £2000 for basic insulation of around 270mm, I also got a quote from another company without the GHG, they'd do up to 400mm for £450, this is a job that only takes a few hours and the materials will cost around £100, so it appears that the GHG scheme is really not fit for purpose because the companies that do work with the scheme heavily inflate their prices

Mintyrbc

Dependant on the kit £11k could be a fair price. My 12kw Heat pump is around £6000, the cylinder is around £1500, then the installer will pay a day rate to the plumber and the sparks, around £300 per day, allowing 4 days for the plumber, 1 day for the sparks £1500. Then they have parts, pipe, fittings, insulation, 3 way zone valve, buffers etc. The margins are pretty tight. Im training to fit both ASHP and GSHP so have a good understanding of the associated costs. It isn't cheap.
That only covers the work in the plant room. The work on your house could inflate the bill a lot. A plumber may charge you an additional £5k if you were asking to rip out floors, redo existing pipe work and instal insulation and ufh just on the ground floor. Then you have house side electrics to think about, do you want a secondary return on your hot water? If so that's more plumbing and and a pump with a time which needs electrics. You need a central heating pump and electric controls, will this be zoned, if yes that needs electric controls. If you have a hybrid system, gas & ASHP this increases the controls. 

Something else I forgot about, pump placement, do you need to use pre insulated pipe as the pump i away from the plant room. If so that needs to be dug out and the pipe is £££. You need a plumb base for the heat pump so you many need building work done to situate it. There are so many variables with each job. Its so different than buying and hooking up a gas boiler.

What system have you been quoted £11k for? I can tell you if they quote is a rip off.

googlefast

Mintyrbc said:

What system have you been quoted £11k for? I can tell you if they quote is a rip off.

The quote is just for a basic installation of 10kw condenser, plus the cylinder and the bare minimum of what's needed to make it run. They aren't making any changes to the pipes, radiators, or anything really, just connecting the new system to the old radiators, their quotation does mention 4k for labour though.

Here's what I've found out so far, apparently the company that manages the GHG scheme is rejecting some quotes and saying that they're not realistic, that's what I heard from one company. It's a shame really because the idea behind scheme is great, but the implementation of it and being able to only work with a few hand picked companies just makes it not fit for purpose.

Mintyrbc

£4k for labour sounds like a total rip off. Without knowing the specifics of the job though it's hard to say. Like i said before the installation fees are around £1,200 for the plumber & £300 for the sparks. If they are charging you £4k id hazard a bet they are installing the most basic or budget kit. 
Most quotes just for an ASHP will only deal with the plant room, installation of the pump, hooking it up to a cylinder and perhaps a buffer then linking it to house side plumbing that will need to be in place already in the plant room. Anything house side will cost you extra.
I would research makes of heat pump, for £11k id be wanting a Dakin, Viessmann or Mitsibishi with a decent sized cylinder containing an inline buffer for that sort of money. Below is what I had installed for just over £10k. I had to cover the cost of the house side pumps, the house side magnitex, the room insulation, the central heating electrics on the left and the base that the heat pump sits on. Thats just plant room costs, there was a load of stuff I had to do to the house. 

shinytop

googlefast said:

Mintyrbc said:

What system have you been quoted £11k for? I can tell you if they quote is a rip off.

The quote is just for a basic installation of 10kw condenser, plus the cylinder and the bare minimum of what's needed to make it run. They aren't making any changes to the pipes, radiators, or anything really, just connecting the new system to the old radiators, their quotation does mention 4k for labour though.

Here's what I've found out so far, apparently the company that manages the GHG scheme is rejecting some quotes and saying that they're not realistic, that's what I heard from one company. It's a shame really because the idea behind scheme is great, but the implementation of it and being able to only work with a few hand picked companies just makes it not fit for purpose.

That sounds a lot.  I've had 2 quotes for a 14kW Mitsubishi heat pump, cylinder, and a full system with all controls including 12 rads and pipework both 16-17k. My house is very easy for pipework and wiring being a bungalow but still...