Severe water damage in kitchen after radiator power flush

Jack_Bauer

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Jack_Bauer said:

The Black lines are my new copper pipes. The Red line is a copper pipe junctioning off the new copper pipe, going towards the hob unit. This pipe is wet directly when it enters the joist under the hob but not before it.

You can see mold on the underside of the floorboard that's been taken up. Here are some more pictures:

This is what it looks like underneath where the black pipes are. The joist you can see here is the joist against that wall.

This is the leaking pipe when looking at it, facing the hob

You have a plumber working on this, so I presume they understand where these pipes are going and why? Because a lot of this doesn't make sense...

1) The pipe that's leaking (redd-line) is coming FROM the new 'black-line' pipe? Or is supplying it? If the former, just cap it off at the black pipe, surely? If the latter, yea cannae cap it, captain, 'cos it's the supply. I must be wrong on both counts, tho', because neither of the above scenarios makes sense as you and your plumber would already have figured this out in a nano-second. So, what are these pipes, where and why?!

2) The obvious solution is as Dickie says; cap that pipe, and take the garden tap out the back of the sink unit, unless there's a mysterious reason why this cannot be done?

The only unit that'll actually need removing, if at all, is the drawer unit under the hob? That can come out without damaging the top in any way. The top will only be damaged if some twit sits on it whilst the unit is out, and possibly not even then.

Meanwhile get some solvent-free all-in-one wood rot killer and treatment (Ronseal, Everbuild Limberjack, whatevs), and put it in a garden sprayer. Soak all that timber tobesure tobesure. Solvent-free can be applied to damp timber, but obviously the drier it is beforehand the better.

I still don't understand these pipes, tho'...

The red pipe runs off of the black pipes. The black pipes run into the boiler which is in the cabinet directly opposite. You can see the pipework exposed in the picture.

I agree, I think it is best to cap the pipe and run it out the garden from my kitchen sink area.

In terms of units that need to come out, right now I am still trying to determine from damp/rot specialists what they recommend.  Its really hard to get a straight answer from them and most are saying take the units out and repair/replace the wood.

I'm still ringing around to figure out what to do. Remember, my tiles failed in the first place and it is likely due to the floorboard issues. I don't want to retile over it all for my tiles to fail all over again. I think I'll likely have to do it properly

Jeepers_Creepers

Jack_Bauer said:

The red pipe runs off of the black pipes. The black pipes run into the boiler which is in the cabinet directly opposite. You can see the pipework exposed in the picture.

I agree, I think it is best to cap the pipe and run it out the garden from my kitchen sink area.

In terms of units that need to come out, right now I am still trying to determine from damp/rot specialists what they recommend.  Its really hard to get a straight answer from them and most are saying take the units out and repair/replace the wood.

I'm still ringing around to figure out what to do. Remember, my tiles failed in the first place and it is likely due to the floorboard issues. I don't want to retile over it all for my tiles to fail all over again. I think I'll likely have to do it properly

At least that suggests you won't have to get under the hob unit to actually cap off that pipe - it can be done as it leaves the 'black' pipe.

As you say, that leaves the issue of whether the underfloor has been damaged. Is it actually any springier around that area than anywhere else?

When you say the old tiled floor failed, where did it fail, and what did the 'failure' consist of?

Unless there are obvious signs of rot which have clearly weakened that area, my personal inclination would be to (a) let it dry out, (b) soak it in wood treatment, (c) recover the floor using the least springy material, and (d) fit a non-ceramic tile on that floor. They are such high quality these days, that you won't even notice. And - ooh - it'll be more pleasant to walk on. And - ahhhh - it'll be warmer.

Jobbie jobbed. You'd be nuts to take up all that floor if it isn't essential. You'd be insane to try and recover it with hard floor tiles again when that's already failed and the tiler can't seem to tell you why.

Now't personal, like... :-)

FreeBear

Jeepers_Creepers said: When you say the old tiled floor failed, where did it fail, and what did the 'failure' consist of?

From another thread, the tiles failed due to sloppy application of adhesive that left voids under many of the tiles. To see some of the disaster that the OP is working with - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6234317/my-tiler-is-leveling-floor-on-old-adhesive-which-he-cant-remove-is-this-safe-to-do/p1

theoretica

If you cap the pipe and leave it in place may I suggest labelling any bits you can get that it is dead?  It has the potential to reduce future frustration.

Jack_Bauer

Hi all,

I'm resurrecting this thread as I've only just been able to get access to the flooring under my units. It was a nightmare finding any tradesmen willing to touch the work due to the risk to the worktop. Literally no-one wanted the work. Luckily I managed to find a carpenter/kitchen fitter who did and he's done a stellar job getting all the wood removed and the area exposed for investigation and remedial work.

Firstly, the pipe I previously thought was a water pipe was actually the gas pipe going to the hob. Thankfully I didn't decide to go ahead and cap it.

In the picture below, the removed area was all water logged floorboards. The water still glistening and it crumbling away like butter. Unfortunately, we still haven't been able to figure out where the water was coming from and we are at a loss as to what to do

We cannot find any leaks on the exposed pipes and there are no other pipes in the affected area. We've left the area open now for 5 days and still no signs of water on the pipes. They're bone dry, albeit quite blue directly where the water damage seems to start from. The water damage is literally from the sink unit and then travels left all the way to the left wall. On the right of the sink unit was a dishwasher and the wood under that was dry.

It can't be coincidental that the copper pipes are blue directly where the damage starts from? But how comes the pipes are dry?!

Now the question is, if it's not the pipes that caused the damage, what else could it be?

I don't think it's rising damp because if it was, wouldn't the base of the joists be wet. In all the pictures/videos we have taken, the wood at the base appears dry. The below picture was taken before all the wet rotten floorboards were taken up. You can see the black floorboards all rotted away yet the bottom joist touching the concrete is dry.

The ground is moist but it isn't wet wet.

The area in the left corner of the kitchen, directly opposite the gully/garden rear tap was the most damaged. It also extended further inward to the kitchen as can be seen in the first picture. This is the picture of the far left corner of the kitchen now. Again, it appears the floorboards and the top of the joists were wet and the ground wood isn't.

I'm trying to get some damp guys to come in and investigate but seriously what on earth are the possible causes?

A pinhole leak in those pipes that has since stopped by itself?

Rising damp, even though the ground wood seems dry?

Water ingress from outside somehow by the gully perhaps? This is how the water falls onto the gully btw:

One other thing that I've noticed is that the external timber decking that I had was directly in line the line of the floorboards and touching against the external kitchen wall. This has now been removed:

The fence wood here seems to be discolored differently where it was under the deck, compared to where it wasn't under the deck. Could that be a clue perhaps that the decking had a part to play? If so, why isn't the rest of the kitchen affected? The decking wraps around the side of kitchen and that area didn't have the same damage to the floorboards although that area has air bricks whereas the rear of the kitchen does not.

we're very perplexed and would love some input from some of you amazing folk.

Thanks

EmmyLou30

Sounds like a complete nightmare and I can't offer much assistance aside from saying the fence would be a different colour purely because it's been less weathered and affected by UV light by being behind the decking, not because it's the source of the damp (though always advisable to have a gap between deck and wall). 
Was there ever a washing machine in that corner? That could have leaked for years, been fixed but the floor would still be wrecked. That's what we had in our house, previous owners had let it leak for a long time and the boards were all crumbly like yours but only in one corner (joists were fine). 

FreeBear

Jack_Bauer said:

All that loose material piled up against the timbers - You need to remove all of it. The cross timber under the joists should be resting on a DPC material, and you don't want anything that allows moisture to rise up and and bridge the DPC. A lot of crawling around I'm afraid, so someone small and flexible might be useful.