Home insurance coverage question - damage from wall collapse

AbiY

Unfortunately the wall to a large outbuilding on my property collapsed yesterday, I have had a structural engineer visit who has advised that it appears that due to the construction and age of the building it’s just a fault that has aged and eventually given way (it’s stone construction and about 300 years old). Having spent hours on the phone yesterday with my insurer I have found that the repairs to the building are not covered by my insurance as the cause is considered wear and tear. However the collapse has cause some damage to my neighbours garden (fencing, lawn, plants etc) and I’m not clear from my policy whether this damage should be covered? I’ve seen a few other threads where something has happened as a result of aging which in itself wasn’t covered, but damage as a result of the ‘event’ was. One example I saw was a ceiling collapse (lathe and plaster that had aged) which wasn’t covered, but remedying damage to the wallpaper and furniture was. Can I expect this principle to apply here? My policy isn’t clear and I don’t know whether I can have an honest conversation with the insurer. I don’t want to be disparaging of insurers but it feels a little like they will avoid paying anything out as much as possible and without being confident in what I am asking I’m concerned that my ignorance could perhaps go against me...

FlameCloud

Insurers have different philosophies on whether the resultant damage from an incident is covered and a lot of the time it depends on whether you have accidental damage cover.

the biggest issue you will face though is your policy will In essence only cover your property, and your legal liability to others. In essence, your neighbour will need to be able to evidence a breach of tort law, most likely negligence, against you. 

Sandtree

Third party losses are typically covered for all but deliberate acts however for them to be able to claim they’d have to show you were negligent.So they need to demonstrate it was in an obvious poor state of repair and you ignored it

tacpot12

Your neighbours might have Home Insurance themselves and have legal cover as part of this. You could suggest that they speak to their legal help line to get help to understand that the legal situation. The neighbours are likely to be able to claim on their insurance for damage the wall has caused, and as a goodwill gesture you might offer to pay their excess so they are not immediately out of pocket. If they make a claim, their premium might rise, but I would not offer to cover any rise in their premiums. 

Aretnap

Legally, the starting point is that damage to your property is your problem but damage to your neighbour's property is your neighbour's problem. And so your insurance covers your property and your neighbour's insurance covers his property. If your neighbour wants to make a claim for damage to his own property, it's down to him to see if it's covered by his policy.

The exception to this arises if the damage to your neighbour's property was the result of some blame-worthy conduct on your part, in which case you might be legally liable for the damage. However the mere fact that your own property was somehow involved in the incident does not make you blameworthy - generally evidence of negligence on your part is required. Negligence means failure to take the level of care that would be expected of a reasonable person. So, was the wall's condition such that a reasonable homeowner (as opposed to an expert surveyor) would have realised that it was in a dangerous condition, and done something about it before it fell over? If not then you are not liable for the damage and have no (legal) responsibility to pay for it yourself.

Your home insurance will cover your legal liabilities in this situation, but it won't cover your neighbour's property unless you are liable for it. Unfortunately that means that if your neighbour's upset and doesn't want to claim on his own policy, and you feel bad about the situation, that wouldn't by itself for a reason to pay out.

AbiY

Thanks all so much for you help. I think the negligence angle might be tricky because I don’t have any visibility of that side of the building as it faces in to the neighbours garden. Although I suppose arguably I could have carried out periodic inspections... but that’s not something that ever occurred to me!
I don’t want the neighbour to have to claim on her insurance, it doesn’t feel fair that her premiums could go up when it’s my building. I think I’m just going to have to sell a kidney to pay for the repairs and damage(!!!) and accept that my insurance isn’t going to cover anything!
Thank you all so much for you help, it’s much appreciated 😊

davidmcn

Why are you paying for it if it isn't your liability? That's madness, if there's insurance covering it. I suppose you could offer a contribution to her excess/higher premiums if you really wanted. 

theoretica

I guess the big cost will be repairing the building - and it sounds like that needs access through the neighbours grounds there will be more damage to the garden/trampling of plants.  How much damage to the neighbours garden - of things that will not be affected but the rebuilding - has there been?  The fence probably will be a cost, but may have been in the way of rebuilding and so affected anyway. 

Aretnap

AbiY said:

Thanks all so much for you help. I think the negligence angle might be tricky because I don’t have any visibility of that side of the building as it faces in to the neighbours garden. Although I suppose arguably I could have carried out periodic inspections... but that’s not something that ever occurred to me!
I don’t want the neighbour to have to claim on her insurance, it doesn’t feel fair that her premiums could go up when it’s my building. I think I’m just going to have to sell a kidney to pay for the repairs and damage(!!!) and accept that my insurance isn’t going to cover anything!
Thank you all so much for you help, it’s much appreciated 😊

Most homeowner don't have their buildings professionally inspected regularly and there isn't an expectation that they should. Negligence is more likely to be in play if the condition was such that an ordinary person would have realised that the wall was dangerous.

The easiest way for your neighbour to demonstrate negligence would be if she had noticed the wall's poor condition herself, asked you to do something about it, and you hadn't done anything. Otherwise, if it wasn't obvious to her, why should have it been obvious to you? 

Most of the things that your neighbour could claim on her insurance for are things that would not have been her fault - storm damage, floods, burglaries, most fires; none of those things would be her fault, but they'd still mean her premiums going up. I don't think this is really any different. Not her fault but not yours either, just one of those random bits of bad luck which are precisely what people buy insurance to cover. 

If you really want to help out I'd suggest that you offer a contribution towards her excess and/or higher premiums rather than start selling organs to cover the whole claim. But if I were in yoir neighbours shoes I wouldn't be asking for money from you or accepting it - it's not reasonable to expect you to pay for an accident which you couldn't really have done anything about IMO. 

csgohan4

Aretnap said:

AbiY said:

Thanks all so much for you help. I think the negligence angle might be tricky because I don’t have any visibility of that side of the building as it faces in to the neighbours garden. Although I suppose arguably I could have carried out periodic inspections... but that’s not something that ever occurred to me!
I don’t want the neighbour to have to claim on her insurance, it doesn’t feel fair that her premiums could go up when it’s my building. I think I’m just going to have to sell a kidney to pay for the repairs and damage(!!!) and accept that my insurance isn’t going to cover anything!
Thank you all so much for you help, it’s much appreciated 😊

Most homeowner don't have their buildings professionally inspected regularly and there isn't an expectation that they should. Negligence is more likely to be in play if the condition was such that an ordinary person would have realised that the wall was dangerous.

The easiest way for your neighbour to demonstrate negligence would be if she had noticed the wall's poor condition herself, asked you to do something about it, and you hadn't done anything. Otherwise, if it wasn't obvious to her, why should have it been obvious to you? 

Most of the things that your neighbour could claim on her insurance for are things that would not have been her fault - storm damage, floods, burglaries, most fires; none of those things would be her fault, but they'd still mean her premiums going up. I don't think this is really any different. Not her fault but not yours either, just one of those random bits of bad luck which are precisely what people buy insurance to cover. 

If you really want to help out I'd suggest that you offer a contribution towards her excess and/or higher premiums rather than start selling organs to cover the whole claim. But if I were in yoir neighbours shoes I wouldn't be asking for money from you or accepting it - it's not reasonable to expect you to pay for an accident which you couldn't really have done anything about IMO. 

sadly not every neighbor is 'reasonable' or applies a pragmatic approach. They want to find someone to blame and compo

AbiY

theoretica said:

I guess the big cost will be repairing the building - and it sounds like that needs access through the neighbours grounds there will be more damage to the garden/trampling of plants.  How much damage to the neighbours garden - of things that will not be affected but the rebuilding - has there been?  The fence probably will be a cost, but may have been in the way of rebuilding and so affected anyway. 

Yes the major cost will be the building itself, the damage to her garden is that the wall of the building has collapsed on to the garden and crushed everything in its path. So some panelling, plants and the turf. Repairing the building will only be accessible by that garden and at the moment there is a big pile of rubble and stone where it fell and almost her entire garden is blocked off by fencing I had put up to make it safe....