Speeding Penalty

melsey

Can anyone help me, do I have grounds for disputing this?

I have been issued a speeding penalty for doing 36 in a 30 however the road in question i have drove down for the past 15 years to go to work apart from the last year as I have been on maternity, its a 30 road that goes into a 40. So I was adamant the penalty was in correct however I have just googled the road and apparently on 1st Dec 2020 they changed that road from a 40 to a 30. They removed the speed limit and didn't replace it with anything.

Can I dispute this?

AdrianC

When you say they "removed the limit", do you mean they removed the repeater signage?
And the terminal signage where it used to increase from 30 to 40?

And the road has streetlights...?

That should in itself tell you everything you need to know. Default limits, remember?

It's enforceable. Yes, it might be nice if they had "Please note" notices, but they aren't needed.
Take the course if you get offered it, it'll remind you of these things that you've forgotten since your test...

williamgriffin

In a word no, you say they removed the 40 speed limit signs, are there any lampposts?

They will tell you the speed limit.

es5595

If it makes you feel any better, I got done in the early hours of the morning here; you can see the speed camera on the left and the 40 sign on the right. No streetlights on, just the glaring 40!

Tbh, it feels like entrapment, but I got offered a course so took that route. 
You're probably better trying the NIP wizard over on Pepipoo as they are more up to date than here.

ontheroad1970

es5595 said:

If it makes you feel any better, I got done in the early hours of the morning here; you can see the speed camera on the left and the 40 sign on the right. No streetlights on, just the glaring 40!

Tbh, it feels like entrapment, but I got offered a course so took that route. 
You're probably better trying the NIP wizard over on Pepipoo as they are more up to date than here.

Entrapment? Don't be silly.  Nobody is making you speed in order to get you.  There IS a system of streetlights so without repeaters the speed limit is 30mph and doesn't change until you pass the 40mph sign (or more correctly, the location of the order for speed limit).  If you speed up too quickly then you will get a snap.  

AdrianC

es5595 said:

If it makes you feel any better, I got done in the early hours of the morning here; you can see the speed camera on the left and the 40 sign on the right. No streetlights on, just the glaring 40!

Tbh, it feels like entrapment, but I got offered a course so took that route. 
You're probably better trying the NIP wizard over on Pepipoo as they are more up to date than here.

Streetlights don't have to be on. They just have to exist...

Default limits:
Extra-urban, 60.
Urban, 30.
Urban is defined as the presence of street lighting.
Any other limit requires regular repeaters.

But we all remember this from our driving test, right...?

melsey

I cant remember actually if that part has street lights but I will check, what if the street lights have always been there but there was a 40 sign up? They removed that made it a 30 Road but didn't replace the sign. I have looked this up and this seems to be a newish thing because they dont want people to rely on speed signs, I just think its a bit unjust when that road has always been a 40, and nothing has changed on that road apart from the sign being removed. And it was changed just last month!

Marvel1

melsey said:

I cant remember actually if that part has street lights but I will check, what if the street lights have always been there but there was a 40 sign up? They removed that made it a 30 Road but didn't replace the sign. I have looked this up and this seems to be a newish thing because they dont want people to rely on speed signs, I just think its a bit unjust when that road has always been a 40, and nothing has changed on that road apart from the sign being removed. And it was changed just last month!

If driving around the surrounding area at 30mph. then enter area above, no sign saying 40mph as taken away, it's still 30mph.

TooManyPoints

They removed that made it a 30 Road but didn't replace the sign. I have looked this up and this seems to be a newish thing because they dont want people to rely on speed signs,

I think the principle that street lights = 30mph was first laid down in the Road Traffic Act 1930. It was certainly the case in 1965, so hardly new. It is actually illegal to provide "repeater" signs in a  "restricted area" (i.e. one with a system of street lighting).

I doubt you have yet been issued with a penalty. I expect you have simply been asked to provide the driver's details. Make sure you respond to that or you commit a separate offence which carries six points. When you have done that you should be offered an online course. In that they will explain how to identify "restricted" areas and other matters to do with speed limit signage.

AdrianC

melsey said:

I cant remember actually if that part has street lights but I will check, what if the street lights have always been there but there was a 40 sign up?

Repeaters override the default.

They removed that made it a 30 Road but didn't replace the sign.

Because they didn't need to.
The roads feeding in to this 40 stretch are, presumably, 30?
So remove the change-of-limit 40 signs, there's no change of limit.
There are streetlights with no repeaters? It's 30.

I have looked this up and this seems to be a newish thing

Nope, it applied when I had lessons and took my test in the 1980s.
The urban default has been 30 since the 1930s.

And it was changed just last month!

So for how long after a limit is changed should the old limit apply...?

melsey

Thanks for your replies.

I said new as that is what it was described as in the article I found.

OK so if there is street lights thats the giveaway it is a 30 speed limit, regardless if the sign has been removed.

I appreciate your comments, its just frustrating to have done this drive for many years well aware of the speed limits and then this change to happen.

I would not of exceeded the speed limit if I was aware of the change.

But you are advising me that its best to take the speed awareness course if applicable because I wouldnt get anywhere disputing it?

And to be more mindful if the street light are there its classed as urban which is 30.

Again thats another part that has frustrated me, the area to my knowledge hasnt changed so there may well have been Street lights when the 40 sign was up.