How and where do I find out my house price in 1991

lincroft1710

sanmills said:

So maybe this is in Direct response to this forum and others like it, but I am finding it very hard to get the evidence needed to challenge council tax.

I have been to the Gov.uk Site, looked at the evidence they say they need and accept

5 Houses on lower band - ok that can be done through neighbours and websites

Sales between April 1989 - March 1993 (I'm England) - no historic site I can find seems to go back further than 1995

Then copied direct from Gov.uk "The VOA will not consider average house price information from websites such as Nationwide House Price Index, Nethouseprices, Rightmove or Zoopla as strong evidence".... can it be sheer coincidence that they are the exact same companies suggested to use on here??

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain, so unless you know oh a relevant sale between the years 1989 to 1993 and have documented evidence, this avenue is not open to you. All the House Price Indices have been shown to be inaccurate, which is why the VOA won't accept them. 

Your best remaining option is to try to find 5 (or more) nearby houses of a similar age, type and size in a lower band

uptdale

lincroft1710 said:

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain

Does anyone know why this is the case, when they are in the public domain from 1995 onwards?

The Council Tax manual, which sets out guidance to VOA officers, explains that some sales information not in the public domain can be disclosed once an appeal is made (see para 3.11.10).  So there seems to be an incentive to pursue an appeal if the initial challenge does not achieve a result - which seems a rather perverse way of creating more work for everyone involved.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/council-tax-manual/section-1-introduction-and-essential-background

sanmills

lincroft1710 said:

sanmills said:

So maybe this is in Direct response to this forum and others like it, but I am finding it very hard to get the evidence needed to challenge council tax.

I have been to the Gov.uk Site, looked at the evidence they say they need and accept

5 Houses on lower band - ok that can be done through neighbours and websites

Sales between April 1989 - March 1993 (I'm England) - no historic site I can find seems to go back further than 1995

Then copied direct from Gov.uk "The VOA will not consider average house price information from websites such as Nationwide House Price Index, Nethouseprices, Rightmove or Zoopla as strong evidence".... can it be sheer coincidence that they are the exact same companies suggested to use on here??

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain, so unless you know oh a relevant sale between the years 1989 to 1993 and have documented evidence, this avenue is not open to you. All the House Price Indices have been shown to be inaccurate, which is why the VOA won't accept them. 

Your best remaining option is to try to find 5 (or more) nearby houses of a similar age, type and size in a lower band

I have managed to find 4 houses at the end on my Row that are a band Lower, couple of them and 1 or 2 others along the row I actually have found 1995-8 sales .. so you would expect a raise in price .... that still sold within the Band B price range for 1991 their desired date
Just wait and see I guess

lincroft1710

sanmills said:

lincroft1710 said:

sanmills said:

So maybe this is in Direct response to this forum and others like it, but I am finding it very hard to get the evidence needed to challenge council tax.

I have been to the Gov.uk Site, looked at the evidence they say they need and accept

5 Houses on lower band - ok that can be done through neighbours and websites

Sales between April 1989 - March 1993 (I'm England) - no historic site I can find seems to go back further than 1995

Then copied direct from Gov.uk "The VOA will not consider average house price information from websites such as Nationwide House Price Index, Nethouseprices, Rightmove or Zoopla as strong evidence".... can it be sheer coincidence that they are the exact same companies suggested to use on here??

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain, so unless you know oh a relevant sale between the years 1989 to 1993 and have documented evidence, this avenue is not open to you. All the House Price Indices have been shown to be inaccurate, which is why the VOA won't accept them. 

Your best remaining option is to try to find 5 (or more) nearby houses of a similar age, type and size in a lower band

I have managed to find 4 houses at the end on my Row that are a band Lower, couple of them and 1 or 2 others along the row I actually have found 1995-8 sales .. so you would expect a raise in price .... that still sold within the Band B price range for 1991 their desired date
Just wait and see I guess

In most areas 1995 prices were below those of 1991. 1998 prices in some areas were below, some above.

lincroft1710

uptdale said:

lincroft1710 said:

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain

Does anyone know why this is the case, when they are in the public domain from 1995 onwards?

The Council Tax manual, which sets out guidance to VOA officers, explains that some sales information not in the public domain can be disclosed once an appeal is made (see para 3.11.10).  So there seems to be an incentive to pursue an appeal if the initial challenge does not achieve a result - which seems a rather perverse way of creating more work for everyone involved.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/council-tax-manual/section-1-introduction-and-essential-background

Basically details of house sales were given to the VO (as it was then) by the Stamps Office in the strictest confidence that it was not be disclosed. When CT came into being, Parliamentary permission had to be sought for sales details to be disclosed outside the VOA. Further, disclosure can only happen when a valid appeal has been made and that appeal would be proceeding to a Valuation Tribunal hearing. If you are inside the 6 month time limit you would be advised to make a formal appeal, if outside you can only ask for a band review. I believe there has been more recent legislation confirming non disclosure.


Effectively the only sales details the VOA will quote will be that which supports their case, you can ask for sales details for a specific property or properties after the VOA have sent you the evidence they intend to submit at the hearing,  but there is a limit as to how many.sales details you can ask for.


So you won't get any sales info to help you make the initial challenge

uptdale

lincroft1710 said:

uptdale said:

lincroft1710 said:

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain

Does anyone know why this is the case, when they are in the public domain from 1995 onwards?

The Council Tax manual, which sets out guidance to VOA officers, explains that some sales information not in the public domain can be disclosed once an appeal is made (see para 3.11.10).  So there seems to be an incentive to pursue an appeal if the initial challenge does not achieve a result - which seems a rather perverse way of creating more work for everyone involved.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/council-tax-manual/section-1-introduction-and-essential-background

Basically details of house sales were given to the VO (as it was then) by the Stamps Office in the strictest confidence that it was not be disclosed. When CT came into being, Parliamentary permission had to be sought for sales details to be disclosed outside the VOA. Further, disclosure can only happen when a valid appeal has been made and that appeal would be proceeding to a Valuation Tribunal hearing. If you are inside the 6 month time limit you would be advised to make a formal appeal, if outside you can only ask for a band review. I believe there has been more recent legislation confirming non disclosure.

Effectively the only sales details the VOA will quote will be that which supports their case, you can ask for sales details for a specific property or properties after the VOA have sent you the evidence they intend to submit at the hearing,  but there is a limit as to how many.sales details you can ask for.

So you won't get any sales info to help you make the initial challenge

There may have been concerns about confidentiality when CT was introduced, but the Land Registry was later given authority to sell its sales data (for later periods), which makes it even odder that the 1991 data has not (yet) been made public.  Maybe Martin Lewis could get on the case!

I'm not sure how only quoting data which supports the VOA's case squares with the Listing Officer's duty of impartiality.  It's the VOA's responsibility to propose the right band, not the highest arguable band.  I would have thought that if a Listing Officer was found to have failed to disclose relevant information they had which supported the appellant's case, he or she could be in all kinds of trouble.

lincroft1710

uptdale said:

lincroft1710 said:

uptdale said:

lincroft1710 said:

Pre 1994 house prices are not in the public domain

Does anyone know why this is the case, when they are in the public domain from 1995 onwards?

The Council Tax manual, which sets out guidance to VOA officers, explains that some sales information not in the public domain can be disclosed once an appeal is made (see para 3.11.10).  So there seems to be an incentive to pursue an appeal if the initial challenge does not achieve a result - which seems a rather perverse way of creating more work for everyone involved.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/council-tax-manual/section-1-introduction-and-essential-background

Basically details of house sales were given to the VO (as it was then) by the Stamps Office in the strictest confidence that it was not be disclosed. When CT came into being, Parliamentary permission had to be sought for sales details to be disclosed outside the VOA. Further, disclosure can only happen when a valid appeal has been made and that appeal would be proceeding to a Valuation Tribunal hearing. If you are inside the 6 month time limit you would be advised to make a formal appeal, if outside you can only ask for a band review. I believe there has been more recent legislation confirming non disclosure.

Effectively the only sales details the VOA will quote will be that which supports their case, you can ask for sales details for a specific property or properties after the VOA have sent you the evidence they intend to submit at the hearing,  but there is a limit as to how many.sales details you can ask for.

So you won't get any sales info to help you make the initial challenge

There may have been concerns about confidentiality when CT was introduced, but the Land Registry was later given authority to sell its sales data (for later periods), which makes it even odder that the 1991 data has not (yet) been made public.  Maybe Martin Lewis could get on the case!

I'm not sure how only quoting data which supports the VOA's case squares with the Listing Officer's duty of impartiality.  It's the VOA's responsibility to propose the right band, not the highest arguable band.  I would have thought that if a Listing Officer was found to have failed to disclose relevant information they had which supported the appellant's case, he or she could be in all kinds of trouble.

The VOA does not "propose bands" they assign (or assigned) the band they believe is correct. If the band is appealed, there would be no point in quoting evidence to support a lower band, because if the VOA found such evidence they would be agreeing a reduction and not be wasting everybody's time and money preparing for and going to a VT hearing. 


You would have to take up the non disclosure of pre 1995 sales information with Parliament as they are  responsible for making the decisions. I'm pretty sure there was fairly recent legislation confirming the status quo. Apparently the Land Registry did not start recording prices paid for property until 1995, so it would be the Stamps Office where the pre 1995 sale prices  are held

seig1dog

I just cannot find out what the value of my property was in 1991 we bought the house in 1965 for £3,100  so we have lived here for 59 years. We are in band C but there are at least 5 other houses of similar age and style with in  quarter of a mile.  Can anyone advise me where I can go to get this estimate on the valuation in 1991 I would really appreciate it. Thank you

lincroft1710

seig1dog said:

I just cannot find out what the value of my property was in 1991 we bought the house in 1965 for £3,100  so we have lived here for 59 years. We are in band C but there are at least 5 other houses of similar age and style with in  quarter of a mile.  Can anyone advise me where I can go to get this estimate on the valuation in 1991 I would really appreciate it. Thank you

1991 house prices are not in the public domain. There are house price indices such as Zoopla, Nationwide Halifax and Rightmove, but they are inaccurate and may not go back as far as 1965. In which band(s) are the 5 houses you refer to.