Penetrating damp in leasehold flat

PawelK

Hi.
We're having a damp problem in our first floor flat. Having done some basic research we can eliminate rising damp and likely it is not a condensation on but to be sure I can get a free check and quote. My question is, once confirmed to be penetrating damp, do I have any rights or in other words, does management company have any responsibility of contributing to the cost of the work to remedy the problem if it's to do with external walls? Our flat is end of the block where two walls (living room and main bedroom) are facing north but also another wall (smaller bedroom) east facing where the problem exists and the main damp visible a over the skirting boards.
Thanking in advance for any suggestions especially from those who experienced similar issues and can advise on the fix and cost. Currently we stripped the affected areas from wallpaper and applied anti mould paint.

princeofpounds

Any chance of a photo of the affected areas, if any remain?

I would not rule out condensation based on what you have said. The fact that it is present on multiple walls and has interior mould, is all suggestive of it. It could be condensation forming on the wall at night and running down to the area above the skirting board. I'm not saying it is condensation, but I wouldn't exclude that possibility based on what you've said so far.

Do you know if the walls are single-skin brick or some other material? Or if there is cavity wall insulation? Are the gutters working properly? Penetrating damp in a well-constructed double-skin cavity wall would be highly unusual.

Assuming you own the lease to the flat - it depends on the lease terms as to who is responsible for what. It is most likely that the freeholder would be responsible for fixing a structural fault. However, they would then pass the cost on for repairs to the leaseholders through the service charge. The freeholder would not have to pay, but the burden of the bill would be shared across all the leaseholders.

eddddy

You need to find out what 'defect' in the building is causing the damp.  For example, it might be a broken rainwater pipe.or gutter is broken or blocked. Or it might be from a leaking central heating pipe. Or many other things.

Then you check the lease to see who is responsible for the 'thing' causing the problem. For example,

• If it's a rainwater pipe or gutter, it's often the freeholder's responsibility to fix it.
• If it's your central heating pipe, it's very likely to be your responsibility to fix it

Usually, the plaster in the flat would be your responsibility (again the lease will confirm this). So once the damp is fixed and the plaster has dried out,  if the plaster needs repairing, or any redecoration is required - that's probably your responsibility.

I would be very cautious about believing what a damp company rep says. Their main goal is to get some business.

It might be sensible to report it to the freeholder/managing agent.

PawelK

Thank you for your quick reply. My reasoning behind penetrating damp is because we tried to amend our habits a year ago such as keeping flat warm, ventilate on a regular basis, dry laundry outside etc. Unfortunately the walls in the living room and spare bedroom we recently treated with paint but last spring we tried initially something else in the main and the coldest room of the flat. After removing built-in wardrobe, we cleaned the walls and applied Erfurt wallrock fibreliner and painted over it. Although the wall feels warmer now, around three months ago we noticed big build up of new white mould (or condensation) over the paint, mostly affecting the area above the skirting boards but going up around a meter or 1.5m. I have to say we didn't help the situation by putting in one corner two tall boxes with speakers and in another a bookcase which also got mouldy on its back panel despite being about five inches away from the wall. Insulating wall clearly didn't help and it looks like at the moment the only way to prevent mould reappearing (if it works as still too early to tell) os to keep the corners or perhaps the whole wall empty which is a big waste of floor space.

PawelK

Forgot to add that particularly in that main bedroom, we have sides of the wall missing skirting boards with exposed stone and holes which we are about to treat very soon with expanding foam as some draft comes through it. However, other rooms have all skirting boards and still mould problem there.

PawelK

eddddy said:

You need to find out what 'defect' in the building is causing the damp.  For example, it might be a broken rainwater pipe.or gutter is broken or blocked. Or it might be from a leaking central heating pipe. Or many other things.

Then you check the lease to see who is responsible for the 'thing' causing the problem. For example,

• If it's a rainwater pipe or gutter, it's often the freeholder's responsibility to fix it.
• If it's your central heating pipe, it's very likely to be your responsibility to fix it

Usually, the plaster in the flat would be your responsibility (again the lease will confirm this). So once the damp is fixed and the plaster has dried out,  if the plaster needs repairing, or any redecoration is required - that's probably your responsibility.

I would be very cautious about believing what a damp company rep says. Their main goal is to get some business.

It might be sensible to report it to the freeholder/managing agent.

Thank you.
To be honest and probably to no surprise at all, I have a very poor record of communication with our management company where I am still waiting for some smaller issues raised as far back as over two years ago, addressed. Therefore, would rather do any investigation or as much research as possible before contacting them again. 

PawelK

this is the last area that we haven't cleaned yet but have to move couple of boxes out of the way first.

PawelK

PawelK said:

Hi.
We're having a damp problem in our first floor flat. Having done some basic research we can eliminate rising damp and likely it is not a condensation on but to be sure I can get a free check and quote. My question is, once confirmed to be penetrating damp, do I have any rights or in other words, does management company have any responsibility of contributing to the cost of the work to remedy the problem if it's to do with external walls? Our flat is end of the block where two walls (living room and main bedroom) are facing north but also another wall (smaller bedroom) east facing where the problem exists and the main damp visible a over the skirting boards.
Thanking in advance for any suggestions especially from those who experienced similar issues and can advise on the fix and cost. Currently we stripped the affected areas from wallpaper and applied anti mould paint.

Just added the photo. Hope you can see well enough. In the other rooms it was just a simple old wallpaper which was covered in black and dark grey mould.

princeofpounds

PawelK said:

Thank you for your quick reply. My reasoning behind penetrating damp is because we tried to amend our habits a year ago such as keeping flat warm, ventilate on a regular basis, dry laundry outside etc. Unfortunately the walls in the living room and spare bedroom we recently treated with paint but last spring we tried initially something else in the main and the coldest room of the flat. After removing built-in wardrobe, we cleaned the walls and applied Erfurt wallrock fibreliner and painted over it. Although the wall feels warmer now, around three months ago we noticed big build up of new white mould (or condensation) over the paint, mostly affecting the area above the skirting boards but going up around a meter or 1.5m. I have to say we didn't help the situation by putting in one corner two tall boxes with speakers and in another a bookcase which also got mouldy on its back panel despite being about five inches away from the wall. Insulating wall clearly didn't help and it looks like at the moment the only way to prevent mould reappearing (if it works as still too early to tell) os to keep the corners or perhaps the whole wall empty which is a big waste of floor space.

Condensation can be insidious. It's often blamed on 'lifestyle factors', but the truth is that the design of a building has a massive influence on whether it happens or not. Sometimes breathing at night can be enough. The fact that a bookcase five inches from the wall got mouldy is suggestive of condensation, but not conclusive. 

Given that you say the walls are stone and have gaps... that could certainly lead to cold walls that would encourage the formation of condensation. However, it also suggests that there is no cavity, so penetration of damp just from general weather is also a possibility, when in a normal property it would be exceptionally rare. If there are gaps in the walls, that's almost certainly the freeholder's responsibility, not for you to fill up with expanding foam (though I understand why you would do it with an unresponsive freeholder).

PawelK

princeofpounds said:

PawelK said:

Thank you for your quick reply. My reasoning behind penetrating damp is because we tried to amend our habits a year ago such as keeping flat warm, ventilate on a regular basis, dry laundry outside etc. Unfortunately the walls in the living room and spare bedroom we recently treated with paint but last spring we tried initially something else in the main and the coldest room of the flat. After removing built-in wardrobe, we cleaned the walls and applied Erfurt wallrock fibreliner and painted over it. Although the wall feels warmer now, around three months ago we noticed big build up of new white mould (or condensation) over the paint, mostly affecting the area above the skirting boards but going up around a meter or 1.5m. I have to say we didn't help the situation by putting in one corner two tall boxes with speakers and in another a bookcase which also got mouldy on its back panel despite being about five inches away from the wall. Insulating wall clearly didn't help and it looks like at the moment the only way to prevent mould reappearing (if it works as still too early to tell) os to keep the corners or perhaps the whole wall empty which is a big waste of floor space.

Condensation can be insidious. It's often blamed on 'lifestyle factors', but the truth is that the design of a building has a massive influence on whether it happens or not. Sometimes breathing at night can be enough. The fact that a bookcase five inches from the wall got mouldy is suggestive of condensation, but not conclusive. 

Given that you say the walls are stone and have gaps... that could certainly lead to cold walls that would encourage the formation of condensation. However, it also suggests that there is no cavity, so penetration of damp just from general weather is also a possibility, when in a normal property it would be exceptionally rare. If there are gaps in the walls, that's almost certainly the freeholder's responsibility, not for you to fill up with expanding foam (though I understand why you would do it with an unresponsive freeholder).

Thanks. Yes, already bought the foam, just want to clear the other side of the wall (the one from the photo) so I can apply at the same time. To be honest I won't be surprised if the foam doesn't help much. Also, the block of flats is from the 1930s and I already checked in the past, it's sold bricks built so no cavity etc.

MEM62

We're having a damp problem in our first floor flat. Having done some basic research we can eliminate rising damp and likely it is not a condensation 

Despite your assumption, it is most likely to be condensation through poor ventilation.  A classic flat issue.  

I can get a free check and quote. 

It is free for a reason.  It is in their interest to find a problem so they can sell you a solution.  Be very sceptical of any findings given to you. 

My question is, once confirmed to be penetrating damp.

Or perhaps if they find penetrating damp.  Sounds like you have made up your mind already.   

My question is, once confirmed to be penetrating damp, do I have any rights or in other words, does management company have any responsibility of contributing to the cost of the work to remedy the problem if it's to do with external walls? 

Maybe but, as their source of income is the maintenance charges that you pay, this will ultimately fall back on your pocket anyway.  Perhaps the best you can hope for is that the cost is spread amongst your neighbours.  Do any of the other flats have an issue?  Also, if it is penetrating damp you a likely to see evidence of the water ingress looking at the outside of the external walls.  Can you see anything amiss?