Is there a Neutral in these light switches?

powerful_Rogue

This is probably going to be beyond my skill set, so will get an electrician in, however before I do, I want to make sure what I want to do is possible.

With all 3 of these switches, I want to make them smart, so I can turn the lights off remotely when the OH has forgotten to turn them off. Just want to check there is a Neutral in these pics. I would be looking at adding a Shelly device.

In the Kitchen I have this fused switch which controls the outside lights.

The in the garage, there is a single switch by the garage door:

and then a double switch by the rear garage door, which controls the lights in the garage, and also some seperate outside lights.

Many thanks in advance!

Risteard

Some of those are fused connection units rather than light switches. Perhaps the lighting was taken off a local socket circuit or something like that. The latter ones the extra cores connected at the back may be simply phase conductors for 2-way switching, but might be neutrals. Would really need an Electrician on site to assess exactly how they are wired. The cores have not been marked in accordance with the requirements of the Wiring Regulations, however. Any phase conductor - including switched phase conductors - must be marked brown in single phase installations now, and previously in red (up until the 2004-2006 transition period). As such the conductors should have been sleeved in brown/red to show that they are phase conductors in a single phase installation. This is a non-compliance with the Wiring Regulations.

grumbler

On the fused switch "N" on the terminal stands for Neutral. Black old wires and blew new ones are typically Neutral too. Don't take my word for this.

For the newer switches, all wires except Earth are likely to be switched Live. I don't know how smart switches have to be wired, but, AFAIK, this is typical for most switches.

powerful_Rogue

Thank you both for your replies. I shall wait till I get an electrican out for a few other bits and get them to have a look!

Mickey666

This is a classic problem with electrical installations.  There are all manner of rules and guidelines but it's not wise to assume anything.  As Risteard rightly says the live conductors have not been correctly sleeved so it would be dangerous to assume their function just from their colour.  Eg, in that last photo, the black wire to the 'COM' terminal of the 2-way switch is almost certainly NOT a neutral conductor, even though it is black.

This is a classic example of needing to understand circuits and how they work rather than just rely on the 'rules', which can only really be a guide.

To answer your basic question about whether these switches boxes have a live and neutral within them (presumably required to power whatever smart switch device you're planning on using), it looks to me as if some do and some don't.  The fused spur switch almost certainly DOES, the single switch by the garage door almost probably DOES (the switch will be the live conductor and the neutral conductors look to be connected together under the black tape) and the double switch by the rear garage door probably DOESN'T. 

But NONE of those suggestions be RELIED upon and would have to be expressly tested to confirm EXACTLY how things are wired.  This is what an electrician would do and it's that KNOWLEDGE that you pay for, not the connecting of a few wires, which is what any DIYer can do.

fenwick458

in the first pic (the fused spur) theres a neutral, but good luck getting 2 x 2.5mm conductors into the smart switch, I fitted one the other week and it's as it it was made to be wired up with bellwire the terminals were that small
and in the rest of the pics theres no neutral. the single one in the garage with 2 blacks connected together isn't a neutral, it's a switched live. 
but in the last pic I can see the joint box where there will be a neutral so it's easily sorted.

GDB2222

I was thinking of making our kitchen light switch smart. There’s no neutral, but there is an earth!  I guess that Incorrectly wiring it would be a no, then?

grumbler

fenwick458 said:

the single one in the garage with 2 blacks connected together isn't a neutral, it's a switched live. 

Why do you think so? Neutral makes much more sense to me.

but in the last pic I can see the joint box where there will be a neutral

I don't see anything like this in the last picture.

powerful_Rogue

Thanks again for your replies. In the garage, I think this is the joint box picture.

Mickey666

GDB2222 said:

I was thinking of making our kitchen light switch smart. There’s no neutral, but there is an earth!  I guess that Incorrectly wiring it would be a no, then?

Not only is it incorrect, if the installation has an RCD it wouldn't even work because it would create a current leakage to earth, which is exactly what an RCD is designed to detect and then trip.

GDB2222

Mickey666 said:

GDB2222 said:

I was thinking of making our kitchen light switch smart. There’s no neutral, but there is an earth!  I guess that Incorrectly wiring it would be a no, then?

Not only is it incorrect, if the installation has an RCD it wouldn't even work because it would create a current leakage to earth, which is exactly what an RCD is designed to detect and then trip.

Indeed. We don't have an RCD, which is why I was thinking idly about doing it. (I wouldn't btw.) I'm not sure how much these devices take to work? I assumed it would be pretty tiny and might not trip an RCD.

Why do you think it wouldn't work, without an RCD?