PIP MR???

DTyaya

Spoonie_Turtle said:

DTyaya said:

_shel said:

DTyaya said:

Rubyroobs said:

Personally I wouldn't risk it unless i was extremely confident of scoring the extra points needed for enhanced mobility. How many points short were you ?

I was short of 2 points. 

 What descriptor do you need to meet? 

The following of unfamiliar journeys due to having and panic and anxiety disorder. 

Do you mind if I ask whether you got descriptor D or E? Sometimes it can be easier to challenge E than D, if you can demonstrate that having someone with you for familiar journeys enabled you to do them (which wouldn't be the case if any journey causes overwhelming distress even if someone's with you).

Oh, just re-read your post - do you mean familiar or unfamiliar?

But either way Alice_Holt and calcotti make excellent points.

Thanks. I was referring to the unfamiliar journeys. 

calcotti

Given the spread and totality of the points scored the DL award looks fairly safe.

For mobility if you got downgraded from descriptor d to b you would lose your mobility award.

Above observations obviously made without reference to your health conditions and their impact and therefore no knowledge of whether the award is ‘correct’.

if you have not previously done so you should look at pages 113 to 118 here https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/918329/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-assessment-criteria.pdf

poppy12345

I've heard of people request the MR and gone onto lose everything they already had so do be aware of that.

I think it's very difficult to give advice here unless we know a little about your conditions and why you think you should have scored points in following and planning a journey. I appreciate that you may not be comfortable telling people on a forum all that information.

Spoonie_Turtle

DTyaya said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

DTyaya said:

_shel said:

DTyaya said:

Rubyroobs said:

Personally I wouldn't risk it unless i was extremely confident of scoring the extra points needed for enhanced mobility. How many points short were you ?

I was short of 2 points. 

 What descriptor do you need to meet? 

The following of unfamiliar journeys due to having and panic and anxiety disorder. 

Do you mind if I ask whether you got descriptor D or E? Sometimes it can be easier to challenge E than D, if you can demonstrate that having someone with you for familiar journeys enabled you to do them (which wouldn't be the case if any journey causes overwhelming distress even if someone's with you).

Oh, just re-read your post - do you mean familiar or unfamiliar?

But either way Alice_Holt and calcotti make excellent points.

Thanks. I was referring to the unfamiliar journeys. 

Yep, understood - my initial comment is pretty much redundant having seen the details of your award

Once you've got your head round the assessment guide calcotti linked, the case law on this site may help if you need any clarification or context of what realistically is awarded what points:  https://pipinfo.net/activities/planning-and-following-journeys

Alice_Holt

DTyaya said:

Alice_Holt said:

I'd echo the other comments. There is a risk - the whole of the award will be looked at again (not just the descriptor you want them to look at). Your award can stay the same, increase, or decrease.  I have seen awards be decreased at MR stage by a second DWP decision maker.

Did the Citizens Advice advisor you spoke to help you with the claim?   If they are familiar with your claim then you should take that advice very seriously.   
What exact descriptors and points did you score?

Hi Alice

No citizens advice did not help with the claim. Originally when I made the claim last year September it was all new to me and I wasn’t actually aware of how much help and support was out there so I tried my best to do it all myself initially. However I’ve since learned so much. 

Today is the first time speaking with citizens advice and as mentioned before we didn’t really divulge into my other disabilities, although he asked what I was getting PIP for, but he remained more focused on the descriptor I wanted to challenge. So I could be fair to say that he does not have a full insight into my health or PIP claim. 

All points I scored for: 
DL 
You need prompting from another person to prepare and cook a simple meal (2points) 
You need supervision, prompting or assistance from another person to manage your therapy and that this therapy takes no more than 3.5 hours a week (2 points) 
You need to use and aid or appliance to wash or bathe (2 points)
You need an aid or appliance to manage toilet needs or incontinence (2 points) 
You need to use an aid or appliance to dress and undress (2 points) 
You need to be prompted by another person to engage with other people (2 points) 
You need prompting or assistance from another person to make complex budgeting decisions (2 points)

Mobility 
You can stand and then moving an aid or appliance 20metres but no more than 50metres (10 points) 

     Thanks DTyaya,

            Some thoughts.  And an important caveat - as I don't know your circumstances the following is theoretical.  You will need to assess it and fit it to your particular situation.

      There are a number of DL points which reflect your physical issues and also your mental health issues.
 The mental health descriptors being:
Prompting to prepare meals / cook; prompting for social engagement; prompting for budgeting decisions.

However, as you note, the mobility score is just for the physical moving around activity.  With no points scored for Planning and Following Journeys. This might be inconsistent when compared with the DL points.
  Any points from this activity, when added to the existing 10 mobility would lead to an enhanced award.
1. Planning and following journeys.
b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.  4 points.
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.  10 points.

So, if you can show the need for prompting to undertake a journey, those 4 points would be sufficient.
Can I ask what mental health issues you face?   Are they in line with those detailed in the assessment guide that calcotti linked to?

If you do decide on an MR (having evaluated the risks), then before writing it:- 
a) Ask for a copy of the assessors's report and check for any inconsistency in the Following a Journey section;
b) Check that you detailed in the PIP form the difficulties you had with the Following a Journey activity;
c) Get evidence to support that additional points should have been scored. This could be medical evidence, your recent medical records, or letters from family / friends /  carers confirming that they do prompt you or accompany you on unfamiliar journeys (because of psychological distress). 

Given your awarded descriptors and points (14 and 10) - I wouldn't strongly try to dissuade you from an MR - but, if you do, make it as compelling and clear as you can. Write it in a way which backs up the points already scores, and builds to a case for awarding points the Following a Journey activity due to anxiety / panic attacks etc. 

I wouldn't rush the MR to hit the I month deadline.
Late MR's can be accepted (particularly in these CV19 times), cite delays in getting evidence, advice, etc and the need get a copy of the report and to carefully consider whether to ask for a MR. 
Most importantly make sure the MR is clear and backed up with evidence.

Be aware of the appeal process. Most MR's are refused and go forward to a Tribunal Service appeal.  Be sure that this long process will not stress you too much.
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal

     
   

Alice_Holt

See also:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6226095/pip-descriptors-confusion#latest

DTyaya

Alice_Holt said:

DTyaya said:

Alice_Holt said:

I'd echo the other comments. There is a risk - the whole of the award will be looked at again (not just the descriptor you want them to look at). Your award can stay the same, increase, or decrease.  I have seen awards be decreased at MR stage by a second DWP decision maker.

Did the Citizens Advice advisor you spoke to help you with the claim?   If they are familiar with your claim then you should take that advice very seriously.   
What exact descriptors and points did you score?

Hi Alice

No citizens advice did not help with the claim. Originally when I made the claim last year September it was all new to me and I wasn’t actually aware of how much help and support was out there so I tried my best to do it all myself initially. However I’ve since learned so much. 

Today is the first time speaking with citizens advice and as mentioned before we didn’t really divulge into my other disabilities, although he asked what I was getting PIP for, but he remained more focused on the descriptor I wanted to challenge. So I could be fair to say that he does not have a full insight into my health or PIP claim. 

All points I scored for: 
DL 
You need prompting from another person to prepare and cook a simple meal (2points) 
You need supervision, prompting or assistance from another person to manage your therapy and that this therapy takes no more than 3.5 hours a week (2 points) 
You need to use and aid or appliance to wash or bathe (2 points)
You need an aid or appliance to manage toilet needs or incontinence (2 points) 
You need to use an aid or appliance to dress and undress (2 points) 
You need to be prompted by another person to engage with other people (2 points) 
You need prompting or assistance from another person to make complex budgeting decisions (2 points)

Mobility 
You can stand and then moving an aid or appliance 20metres but no more than 50metres (10 points) 

     Thanks DTyaya,

            Some thoughts.  And an important caveat - as I don't know your circumstances the following is theoretical.  You will need to assess it and fit it to your particular situation.

      There are a number of DL points which reflect your physical issues and also your mental health issues.
 The mental health descriptors being:
Prompting to prepare meals / cook; prompting for social engagement; prompting for budgeting decisions.

However, as you note, the mobility score is just for the physical moving around activity.  With no points scored for Planning and Following Journeys. This might be inconsistent when compared with the DL points.
  Any points from this activity, when added to the existing 10 mobility would lead to an enhanced award.
1. Planning and following journeys.
b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.  4 points.
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.  10 points.

So, if you can show the need for prompting to undertake a journey, those 4 points would be sufficient.
Can I ask what mental health issues you face?   Are they in line with those detailed in the assessment guide that calcotti linked to?

If you do decide on an MR (having evaluated the risks), then before writing it:- 
a) Ask for a copy of the assessors's report and check for any inconsistency in the Following a Journey section;
b) Check that you detailed in the PIP form the difficulties you had with the Following a Journey activity;
c) Get evidence to support that additional points should have been scored. This could be medical evidence, your recent medical records, or letters from family / friends /  carers confirming that they do prompt you or accompany you on unfamiliar journeys (because of psychological distress). 

Given your awarded descriptors and points (14 and 10) - I wouldn't strongly try to dissuade you from an MR - but, if you do, make it as compelling and clear as you can. Write it in a way which backs up the points already scores, and builds to a case for awarding points the Following a Journey activity due to anxiety / panic attacks etc. 

I wouldn't rush the MR to hit the I month deadline.
Late MR's can be accepted (particularly in these CV19 times), cite delays in getting evidence, advice, etc and the need get a copy of the report and to carefully consider whether to ask for a MR. 
Most importantly make sure the MR is clear and backed up with evidence.

Be aware of the appeal process. Most MR's are refused and go forward to a Tribunal Service appeal.  Be sure that this long process will not stress you too much.
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal

     
   

Thank you Alice.  This post is very helpful. I don’t want to go too much into my mental health as they are quite personal but they are in line with what I’ve read. 

 

I will go ahead with the MR as I’ve read the links sent and believe I could stand a good chance even if not successful at this stage but maybe tribunal as the DM mentions nothing about unfamiliar journeys but relates everything in their decision to following journeys as a whole without justification. Although, my report from the assessor noted that I was unable to follow unfamiliar journeys due to anxiety and panic disorder but they believe because I was able to drive a manual car 2-3 times a week up until Nov last year (where the pressure on my legs became to much) that I can do all journeys. The DM also reported that I only made local journeys when I was driving, so I believe I have not been given a fair chance in them assessing what has been said and what evidence has been presented. 

I have also taken all your points on board and highly appreciate this. 

DTyaya

Alice_Holt said:

See also:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6226095/pip-descriptors-confusion#latest

Thanks. This was actually one of my own posts, after I’d received the report. 

calcotti

DTyaya said: I will go ahead with the MR as I’ve read the links sent and believe I could stand a good chance even if not successful at this stage but maybe tribunal as the DM mentions nothing about unfamiliar journeys but relates everything in their decision to following journeys as a whole without justification. Although, my report from the assessor noted that I was unable to follow unfamiliar journeys due to anxiety and panic disorder but they believe because I was able to drive a manual car 2-3 times a week up until Nov last year (where the pressure on my legs became to much) that I can do all journeys. The DM also reported that I only made local journeys when I was driving, so I believe I have not been given a fair chance in them assessing what has been said and what evidence has been presented. 

There is a previous tribunal decision regarding the significance of driving when considering the planning a journey descriptors which makes clear that a decision should not be based on driving alone.
https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/sb-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2019-ukut-274-aac. 

‘I would say that what is required is an overall and holistic assessment encompassing a claimant’s ability to follow the route of a journey through various ways, including driving, travelling on foot and utilising public transport, with neither, of themselves, being determinative.' (paragraph 10)
'... the tribunal should also have considered the possibility that even if the claimant is capable of following part of a route by driving, there might be parts of a journey (I have in mind the starting point and the end point) which will necessarily have to be undertaken by foot.' (paragraph 11)

Also https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/jb-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2019-ukut-203-aac?utm_source=7c3c6d86-004d-41a7-9ac9-64d35d26deaf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Each case will turn upon its individual facts but it is not sufficient to simply say, as did this tribunal, that a claimant is able to follow the route of a journey merely because he is able to follow the bulk of it in his motor car. (paragraph 12)

Spoonie_Turtle

DTyaya said:

Alice_Holt said:

DTyaya said:

Alice_Holt said:

I'd echo the other comments. There is a risk - the whole of the award will be looked at again (not just the descriptor you want them to look at). Your award can stay the same, increase, or decrease.  I have seen awards be decreased at MR stage by a second DWP decision maker.

Did the Citizens Advice advisor you spoke to help you with the claim?   If they are familiar with your claim then you should take that advice very seriously.   
What exact descriptors and points did you score?

Hi Alice

No citizens advice did not help with the claim. Originally when I made the claim last year September it was all new to me and I wasn’t actually aware of how much help and support was out there so I tried my best to do it all myself initially. However I’ve since learned so much. 

Today is the first time speaking with citizens advice and as mentioned before we didn’t really divulge into my other disabilities, although he asked what I was getting PIP for, but he remained more focused on the descriptor I wanted to challenge. So I could be fair to say that he does not have a full insight into my health or PIP claim. 

All points I scored for: 
DL 
You need prompting from another person to prepare and cook a simple meal (2points) 
You need supervision, prompting or assistance from another person to manage your therapy and that this therapy takes no more than 3.5 hours a week (2 points) 
You need to use and aid or appliance to wash or bathe (2 points)
You need an aid or appliance to manage toilet needs or incontinence (2 points) 
You need to use an aid or appliance to dress and undress (2 points) 
You need to be prompted by another person to engage with other people (2 points) 
You need prompting or assistance from another person to make complex budgeting decisions (2 points)

Mobility 
You can stand and then moving an aid or appliance 20metres but no more than 50metres (10 points) 

     Thanks DTyaya,

            Some thoughts.  And an important caveat - as I don't know your circumstances the following is theoretical.  You will need to assess it and fit it to your particular situation.

      There are a number of DL points which reflect your physical issues and also your mental health issues.
 The mental health descriptors being:
Prompting to prepare meals / cook; prompting for social engagement; prompting for budgeting decisions.

However, as you note, the mobility score is just for the physical moving around activity.  With no points scored for Planning and Following Journeys. This might be inconsistent when compared with the DL points.
  Any points from this activity, when added to the existing 10 mobility would lead to an enhanced award.
1. Planning and following journeys.
b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.  4 points.
d. Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.  10 points.

So, if you can show the need for prompting to undertake a journey, those 4 points would be sufficient.
Can I ask what mental health issues you face?   Are they in line with those detailed in the assessment guide that calcotti linked to?

If you do decide on an MR (having evaluated the risks), then before writing it:- 
a) Ask for a copy of the assessors's report and check for any inconsistency in the Following a Journey section;
b) Check that you detailed in the PIP form the difficulties you had with the Following a Journey activity;
c) Get evidence to support that additional points should have been scored. This could be medical evidence, your recent medical records, or letters from family / friends /  carers confirming that they do prompt you or accompany you on unfamiliar journeys (because of psychological distress). 

Given your awarded descriptors and points (14 and 10) - I wouldn't strongly try to dissuade you from an MR - but, if you do, make it as compelling and clear as you can. Write it in a way which backs up the points already scores, and builds to a case for awarding points the Following a Journey activity due to anxiety / panic attacks etc. 

I wouldn't rush the MR to hit the I month deadline.
Late MR's can be accepted (particularly in these CV19 times), cite delays in getting evidence, advice, etc and the need get a copy of the report and to carefully consider whether to ask for a MR. 
Most importantly make sure the MR is clear and backed up with evidence.

Be aware of the appeal process. Most MR's are refused and go forward to a Tribunal Service appeal.  Be sure that this long process will not stress you too much.
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal

     
   

Thank you Alice.  This post is very helpful. I don’t want to go too much into my mental health as they are quite personal but they are in line with what I’ve read. 

 

I will go ahead with the MR as I’ve read the links sent and believe I could stand a good chance even if not successful at this stage but maybe tribunal as the DM mentions nothing about unfamiliar journeys but relates everything in their decision to following journeys as a whole without justification. Although, my report from the assessor noted that I was unable to follow unfamiliar journeys due to anxiety and panic disorder but they believe because I was able to drive a manual car 2-3 times a week up until Nov last year (where the pressure on my legs became to much) that I can do all journeys. The DM also reported that I only made local journeys when I was driving, so I believe I have not been given a fair chance in them assessing what has been said and what evidence has been presented. 

I have also taken all your points on board and highly appreciate this. 

Oh yes, driving ability is given far more weight than it should!  According to my report I'm perfectly capable of planning and following journeys because I hold a driving licence - even though I haven't been well enough to drive for over 4, nearly 5 years now, which I consistently told them throughout the claim process!.

I wish you all the best with trying to get the correct decision