Refund Refused (Ebay): Is everything above board & can I do anything to get a better outcome?

richard_3095

Hi. I've bought a book on Ebay for £18.25. This book was sent using (un-beknown to me at the time) Amazon Logistics where it's tracking indicates parcel was delivered on 24th of December. Unfortunately, it appears it was not delivered to me at my home, because I've not got it. And I was at home on the supposed delivery date. Also, Ebay's system, to this day, does not show the order as being delivered.  Therefore, it was a week at least before I contacted the seller saying I had not received the parcel. Fairly quickly I felt I had to ask for a refund so initiated a refund procedure with Ebay. I did ask the seller to see if he could find out details of delivery, so that this information could be taken into account before the case concluded. Today the case has been summarily closed by Customer Support of Ebay and refund is refused. In response to an enquiry by the seller this is what Amazon Logistics replied with and which appears to be the basis for Ebays' decision:  "Hello from Amazon Selling Partner Support, I understand that your concern is regarding reimburement for MCF Order ID: sb-xxxxxx-xxxx which is delivered but buyer claims to not received the item and you wants to know on which address the package was delivered to. We have investigated the issue thoroughly and found that this order delivered to buyer (in Dewsbury, UK) as per tracking. You can visit the Swiship, a tracking site that allows you to look up tracking for your MCF orders. Search using the tracking number that was provided during shipment. Tracking Number: QBxxxxxxxxxx Dec 24 2020 11:58 am Delivered Dewsbury." From my point of view, where are the details of delivery in Amazon Logistic's response. There is non. They just say delivered, but offer no actual proof (apparently). So, is everything above board with Amazon Logistics answer and Ebay's decision?  Is there anything I can do to better my situation? Also,is it the seller's responsibility to insure his shipments? Does this play a part?  Because I did not get the book, I eventually managed to buy another for £8.25. I was thinking about coming to arrangement whereby the seller sends back to me £8, so he's get £10.25 for the book and my outgoings would then be pretty much the same for a book ( £8.20 + £10.25 = £18.45).  But, the seller won the case and he probably will reject that offer now. Because Ebay summarily closed the case!  Please look at TrustPilot for Amazon Logistics. What does that tell you? Thank you. Rich

[Deleted User]

I would ask them for evidence - eg photo of delivery or whatever method they use. 

richard_3095 said:

Also,is it the seller's responsibility to insure his shipments?

If they choose to, yes, but there's obviously no requirement to do so.

richard_3095 said:

Please look at TrustPilot for Amazon Logistics. What does that tell you? Thank you. Rich

That people who use TrustPilot are generally angry.

powerful_Rogue

Only option if you wish to take it further is to send a Letter Before Action and start Small Claims Court proceedings.

Will be your word against that of the delivery company for the judge to decide.

In regards to Amazon Logistics, they deliver thousands upon thousands of parcels everyday. Only those that have an issue bother write a review. That's why you need to take these reviews with a pinch of salt.

richard_3095

If I went to court over the matter, the judge would not be determining whether or not the parcel was actually delivered, he or she would determine whether the carrier was able to actually proove delivery was made to my address, by the carrier offering the means of proof that was acceptable in law. At the moment, the carrier has failed to indicate how they establish proof of delivery. The seller fails to explained the details behind that thorough investingation.  That is what was required.  I should ask the carrier to explain their means of prooving delivery. I wonder if there is any appropriate case law on proof of delivery.

Sandtree

richard_3095 said:

If I went to court over the matter, the judge would not be determining whether or not the parcel was actually delivered, he or she would determine whether the carrier was able to actually proove delivery was made to my address, by the carrier offering the means of proof that was acceptable in law. At the moment, the carrier has failed to indicate how they establish proof of delivery. The seller fails to explained the details behind that thorough investingation.  That is what was required.  I should ask the carrier to explain their means of prooving delivery. I wonder if there is any appropriate case law on proof of delivery.

The delivery company wouldnt be there as you would be suing the seller and so the judge would be deciding on the balance of probability if they believed you received the parcel and are lying or if you didn't receive the parcel and an error has been made by the delivery company.

As has already been mentioned, companies deliver thousands of parcels a day and the proportion that have any problems are tiny. Adding insurance etc significantly increases the costs, as does having an evidenced delivery, and given people buy so heavily on price if you are selling low value items like books most wont add 25% to the cost for insurance or signatures etc. However that means the risk sits with the seller.

Obviously in these Covid days even if you pay for requesting a signature you arent going to get one, you may get a photo of the parcel by the front door or something but thats about it. If its something that fits in the letter box then its even less you'll get. For a parcel that fits in the letterbox etc or they hand to the resident then simply press the delivered button on their phone and it gives them the address for their next delivery.

Presumably you have double checked with those that you live with and your neighbours that they didnt take it in? 

Your only option is to send a letter before action to the seller and go to court if they don't react but it'll be a roll of the dice on who the judge believes.

richard_3095

So, it's the seller I'd be suing. Even though the carrier is at fault.  The seller would no doubt use the carrier's statement that delivery was made. I guess the judge would have to determine whether that proof was reliable evidence of delivery. I do not see this as a case where the integrity of either the seller or buyer is to be decided. I think the judge would be able to appreciate both seller and buyer are honest in their dealings. Indeed, I'm sure the seller would not be claiming I'm lying. The issue would be, is delivery proven.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Sounds like the seller may have dropshipped the order from Amazon, some of these sellers are based outside the UK. Does the seller have a UK address at the bottom of their listings (or under the Legal Information tab on the App)?

richard_3095

The seller is a UK seller. And honest. The seller has a contract with the carrier. Does the carrier have an obligation to me to give a statement of his methods of establishing proof of delivery? Any appeal case with Ebay may turn on whether Ebay is satified the seller has established proof of delivery. If the carrier fails to tell me of it's methods establishing proof of delivery, I'd be asking Ebay to take that failure into account in their decision.

[Deleted User]

richard_3095 said:

Does the carrier have an obligation to me to give a statement of his methods of establishing proof of delivery? 

No. The carrier's obligations are to their customer.

richard_3095

So, if my appeals case with Ebay turns on information obtained from the carrier and the carrier refuses to deal with me and the seller wont ask for details of methods of proof of delivery, I'm stuck. Unless Ebay decide that failure of the carrier to supply details means proof of delivery not proven.

[Deleted User]

Correct.