Arch removal - what do we need?

gym11

We want to get the archway removed between our lounge and dining room. Plenty of neighbours have done the same thing. We know we will need a new beam/support to go in at the top.

We've had 2 quotes so far. 1 from a local Master Building Firm which included full structural engineer report, building control and all the work, waste plastering etc. It was over £4000.
Second quote was from a local independent one man firm. His quote for the work was just over £1000 but he didn't mention anything about a structural survey or building control. When I asked him about this he just said this is something we would need to sort but I got the impression this wasn't something we thought was needed (he also didn't mention this when he came to look at the work)

We've never done this sort of thing before... Can anyone tell me what we actually HAVE to have? I understand Building Control is pretty essential?? But is the structural engineer report needed? Is it a bit odd for the second guy not to mention any of these? The difference in quotes is obviously huge so just trying to work out if we have missed something obvious!!

Doozergirl

It's not a surprise that the second guy didn't mention it if his quote was £1,000!    Don't talk to him again, god only knows what you could have ended up with.  

Building control rely on the structural engineer's calculations to sign it off, so there's your answer.   BC don't specify, they inspect and certify.  

If you want to be MSE, I suggest you hire a structural engineer and get their advice and calculations.  Then you know exactly what needs to be done and you can ensure it happens via a builder with integrity but you escape any mark up on that one element.  

theoretica

A bit harder in lockdown, but can you ask neighbours who have had it done relatively recently?  What did it cost and do they recommend whoever did it?

Mickey666

gym11 said:

We want to get the archway removed between our lounge and dining room. Plenty of neighbours have done the same thing. We know we will need a new beam/support to go in at the top.

Has it been confirmed that the archway is actually structural?
I once had a house where two rooms had been 'knocked through' and had a shallow arch where the original wall had been.  Long story short, it turned out that the original wall had been removed, a suitable RSJ had been installed to provide the structural support and the 'arch' was purely cosmetic having been formed from plasterboard, wire mesh and then plastered over.

FreeBear

gym11 said:  The difference in quotes is obviously huge so just trying to work out if we have missed something obvious!!

If you go for the cheap quote, skip the structural engineer & BC parts, you save a few quid now. But if the work is not up to standard, you risk a major collapse of the property. If that doesn't happen, you will face problems when you come to sell and may well have to drop the price to cover any remedial work. Oh, and should the council decide to take enforcement action, it will be you footing the bill, not the guy who did the work.

If a job needs doing, it pays to do it properly from the beginning.

gym11

Mickey666 said:

gym11 said:

We want to get the archway removed between our lounge and dining room. Plenty of neighbours have done the same thing. We know we will need a new beam/support to go in at the top.

Has it been confirmed that the archway is actually structural?
I once had a house where two rooms had been 'knocked through' and had a shallow arch where the original wall had been.  Long story short, it turned out that the original wall had been removed, a suitable RSJ had been installed to provide the structural support and the 'arch' was purely cosmetic having been formed from plasterboard, wire mesh and then plastered over.

The house was built with the archway in place. It's not an old house, only about 16 years old. There is a beam currently in place but it doesn't extend the full length of the room from what we can work out. 

The old neighbours next door had the same job done and we had their firm out to quote (the MBF ones). He used their plans and drawings to give us a quote as the houses are identical. He said that when they did the job next door they had to replace the full beam, so I assume ours would be exactly the same.

gym11

Doozergirl said:

It's not a surprise that the second guy didn't mention it if his quote was £1,000!    Don't talk to him again, god only knows what you could have ended up with.  

Building control rely on the structural engineer's calculations to sign it off, so there's your answer.   BC don't specify, they inspect and certify.  

If you want to be MSE, I suggest you hire a structural engineer and get their advice and calculations.  Then you know exactly what needs to be done and you can ensure it happens via a builder with integrity but you escape any mark up on that one element.  

We've had such a bad run with dodgy trades people. We literally had 8/9 people to quote for our bathroom before we found one who was reliable and didn't hugely overcharge (quotes ranged from £3000-10000). Don't even get me started on the plumbing firm that tried to rip us off with a new boiler when we didn't need one or the heating engineer who turned up drunk, having driven from the pub...!

We don't really know many people in the area and certainly no one who has had any work done. How do we find decent trades people? Checkatrade etc has produced the worst of the rogues so far! Facebook is rubbish because people just recommend friends or family members. 

Doozergirl

gym11 said:

Doozergirl said:

It's not a surprise that the second guy didn't mention it if his quote was £1,000!    Don't talk to him again, god only knows what you could have ended up with.  

Building control rely on the structural engineer's calculations to sign it off, so there's your answer.   BC don't specify, they inspect and certify.  

If you want to be MSE, I suggest you hire a structural engineer and get their advice and calculations.  Then you know exactly what needs to be done and you can ensure it happens via a builder with integrity but you escape any mark up on that one element.  

We've had such a bad run with dodgy trades people. We literally had 8/9 people to quote for our bathroom before we found one who was reliable and didn't hugely overcharge (quotes ranged from £3000-10000). Don't even get me started on the plumbing firm that tried to rip us off with a new boiler when we didn't need one or the heating engineer who turned up drunk, having driven from the pub...!

We don't really know many people in the area and certainly no one who has had any work done. How do we find decent trades people? Checkatrade etc has produced the worst of the rogues so far! Facebook is rubbish because people just recommend friends or family members. 

Well, you did find a member of the FMB.  And they have a website where you can find others.  

Their work is inspected before joining which is far more than can be said for the more commercial websites.  

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi gym11.

Sis had the exact same job done on her house, 2007 vintage. I was entertaining doing this myself for her, until I realised it was a solid block wall, and structural.

We found a builder who'd do the actual work, and then applied to Building Control for a 'small works cert' - something like that. I think it was a round £140. It essentially employed the BCO to check on this relatively straightforward job. I recall he came out briefly at the beginning just to confirm what her intentions were, and then again at the beam stage to check it has been done correctly.

On his first visit I asked for a recommendation for an SE to determine the beam size, and he made it clear that he wasn't allowed to make personal recommendations. "But X and Y are SE's in the area..."

I called up both. X said £100 for this tiny job, and Y  was - I think - more like £400. X came out, had a good look, spent a nice half hour chatting, drew up a sketch and presented calculations for two types of beam, steel and timber, informing us that timber would be easier to work with and - surprisingly to me - less at risk in a fire (the charcoal shields it and makes it a slow burn, whereas the steel could warp or buckle and would need intumescent coatings and all sorts. I think a couple of layers of p'board is all the timber would need.

Anyhoo, the builder - who was already there installing a stove (yes, he was HETAS) - knocked out the wall and installed the beam for a few extra £undred. I had removed the rad and a power socket, and made good afterwards (using oak sleepers as a frame as per sil's instructions...). The whole cost was well under £1k, but that was, obviously, an exceptional case.

Your Master Builders are charging Master Rates. I'm not saying it's unreasonable, but does sound 'top'. And they are doing everything, inc making good afterwards.

I'd suggest a similar route to us - apply to BC for a 'small works cert', find an SE - ideally with the BCO's "I can't recommend but..." route - and then get recommendations for a friendly local builder who'll do this easy job in 2 or 3 days.

Surely between £2 and £3k is more reasonable?