Can your employer use your holidays for corona leave?

JustAnotherSaver

Where I work they seem to send people for tests like it's going to pick up the newspaper. Nothing wrong with the people, no symptoms, they feel fine, but they're sent all the same and say they have to lie in order to get a test - saying they have symptom X, Y or Z. I was told about another department who were sent for a test & word was that they weren't allowed to work until their result came in. To put some context to it, this latest ramp up isn't just random - we have had an outbreak with a number of staff falling sick over the Xmas period and testing positive.

My question is, if you refuse to get a test because you feel perfectly fine and have absolutely no symptoms whatsoever and they say you can't work without a test result - can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

oh_really

JustAnotherSaver said:

can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

Given the employer can stipulate when A/L is taken, then yes they can.

KiKi

JustAnotherSaver said:

Where I work they seem to send people for tests like it's going to pick up the newspaper. Nothing wrong with the people, no symptoms, they feel fine, but they're sent all the same and say they have to lie in order to get a test - saying they have symptom X, Y or Z. I was told about another department who were sent for a test & word was that they weren't allowed to work until their result came in. To put some context to it, this latest ramp up isn't just random - we have had an outbreak with a number of staff falling sick over the Xmas period and testing positive.

My question is, if you refuse to get a test because you feel perfectly fine and have absolutely no symptoms whatsoever and they say you can't work without a test result - can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

Part 1 - yes, your employer can dictate when you take AL.
Part 2 - if you have symptoms, you should be calling in sick, regardless of whether you take a test.  If you call in sick, it should be taken as sick leave unless you ask to take AL instead.  An employer shouldn't take AL off for time that you are sick, purely on the basis that you've not taken a test.  If you have symptoms then you are sick, whether you have covid or not, whether you take a test or not.  That shouldn't be taken as AL.

JustAnotherSaver

Hmm so which one of you two are correct then because you give slightly conflicting answers. 

Oh really is a blanket yes they can and there's no exceptions kind of answer, since no exceptions were given. 

And Kiki is a well it depends, yes for this but no for that kind of answer. 

You can't both be right so who is? 

As an aside, I imagine if they wanted you to take a test and you refused but then phoned in sick this could lead to disciplinary action for being suspicious. Also if you contacted the test people and said I have no symptoms whatsoever but my employer wants me to lie to get a test (so they don't give one) would result in the employer saying you can't work for 14 days and we'll use your holidays for it. 

Though if you can't work for 14 days, surely they're saying you're sick and if you're sick shouldn't you be paid sick pay, not holiday pay? 

Obviously this is coming from the position of not wanting to waste annual leave so early in the year. 

TELLIT01

Anybody displaying symptoms but refusing to take a test should be sent home by the employer.  Whether they should be paid or not is another matter, but I suspect they would open themselves up to a gross misconduct accusation for deliberately putting other employees at risk.

KatrinaWaves

Your employer has a duty to keep the workplace safe. If you do not want to comply then they do not have to pay you as you are causing yourself to have an unauthorised absence. 

If you have symptoms get a bloody test so those who you have come into contact with can take the necessary precautions. It’s not just about you. 

Undervalued

JustAnotherSaver said:

Hmm so which one of you two are correct then because you give slightly conflicting answers. 

Oh really is a blanket yes they can and there's no exceptions kind of answer, since no exceptions were given. 

And Kiki is a well it depends, yes for this but no for that kind of answer. 

You can't both be right so who is? 

As an aside, I imagine if they wanted you to take a test and you refused but then phoned in sick this could lead to disciplinary action for being suspicious. Also if you contacted the test people and said I have no symptoms whatsoever but my employer wants me to lie to get a test (so they don't give one) would result in the employer saying you can't work for 14 days and we'll use your holidays for it. 

Though if you can't work for 14 days, surely they're saying you're sick and if you're sick shouldn't you be paid sick pay, not holiday pay? 

Obviously this is coming from the position of not wanting to waste annual leave so early in the year. 

I think you have pretty much answered your own question in the paragraph I have highlighted.

Unless there are specific contractual agreements in place, any employer can instruct any employee to take annual leave just by giving fairly minimal notice. So "waste annual leave" doesn't really come into it. Providing they give notice of twice the length of the leave you have no choice.

If you are sick during your annual leave you are entitled to take sick leave and have the annual leave at another time. However the employer is certainly entitled to reasonable proof that you are indeed sick. Many firms have requirements for a doctor's certificate in such circumstances even for the initial 7 days when you would normally self certify. No SSP is payable for the first three days and company sick pay (if any) would be on your normal terms, although the vast majority of schemes are "discretionary" rather than a hard and fast contractual entitlement. So you could easily end up with no pay until day four and even SSP can be withheld if the employer is suspicious about the "illness".

General_Grant

JustAnotherSaver said:

Where I work they seem to send people for tests like it's going to pick up the newspaper. Nothing wrong with the people, no symptoms, they feel fine, but they're sent all the same and say they have to lie in order to get a test - saying they have symptom X, Y or Z. I was told about another department who were sent for a test & word was that they weren't allowed to work until their result came in. To put some context to it, this latest ramp up isn't just random - we have had an outbreak with a number of staff falling sick over the Xmas period and testing positive.

My question is, if you refuse to get a test because you feel perfectly fine and have absolutely no symptoms whatsoever and they say you can't work without a test result - can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

Has anyone else addressed the matter of being told to lie to take advantage of a tax-payer funded service?
Whilst an employer can give notice for someone to take holiday, is it reasonable to ask an employee to lie?  If the employee lies on the instruction of the employer does the employer doubt the truthfulness of the employee in other matters?

KatrinaWaves

General_Grant said:

JustAnotherSaver said:

Where I work they seem to send people for tests like it's going to pick up the newspaper. Nothing wrong with the people, no symptoms, they feel fine, but they're sent all the same and say they have to lie in order to get a test - saying they have symptom X, Y or Z. I was told about another department who were sent for a test & word was that they weren't allowed to work until their result came in. To put some context to it, this latest ramp up isn't just random - we have had an outbreak with a number of staff falling sick over the Xmas period and testing positive.

My question is, if you refuse to get a test because you feel perfectly fine and have absolutely no symptoms whatsoever and they say you can't work without a test result - can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

Has anyone else addressed the matter of being told to lie to take advantage of a tax-payer funded service?
Whilst an employer can give notice for someone to take holiday, is it reasonable to ask an employee to lie?  If the employee lies on the instruction of the employer does the employer doubt the truthfulness of the employee in other matters?

Its all seems very smoke and mirrors and 'another department' this and 'Ive been told' that.  Considering the OP's aversion to having a test even if they have symptoms I cant say I believe that this version of events is accurate.

Undervalued

General_Grant said:

JustAnotherSaver said:

Where I work they seem to send people for tests like it's going to pick up the newspaper. Nothing wrong with the people, no symptoms, they feel fine, but they're sent all the same and say they have to lie in order to get a test - saying they have symptom X, Y or Z. I was told about another department who were sent for a test & word was that they weren't allowed to work until their result came in. To put some context to it, this latest ramp up isn't just random - we have had an outbreak with a number of staff falling sick over the Xmas period and testing positive.

My question is, if you refuse to get a test because you feel perfectly fine and have absolutely no symptoms whatsoever and they say you can't work without a test result - can they stop you working & use your annual leave for the days you have off?

Part 2 of that question would be say you do have symptoms but also don't want or wont have a test - rather than have your leave as sick, can your employer deduct this leave from your annual holidays?

Has anyone else addressed the matter of being told to lie to take advantage of a tax-payer funded service?
Whilst an employer can give notice for someone to take holiday, is it reasonable to ask an employee to lie?  If the employee lies on the instruction of the employer does the employer doubt the truthfulness of the employee in other matters?

Well no obviously it is not. 

Theoretically, if the employee were disciplined and eventually dismissed, they could claim unfair dismissal (even without two years service as the employer is asking they to commit a criminal act). However, proving it, would be another matter as I doubt the employer is stupid enough to put such an instruction in writing or in front of witnesses.

Getting a test, if the employee meets the criteria, would be a reasonable management instruction. If they don't meet the NHS criteria the employer could / should pay for a private test.

couriervanman

OP If the tests are being done in work time what is the problem a high proportion of people especially the young have/show no symptoms, and if you refuse and are sent home you only have yourself to blame