Can an employer force you to work in the office?

BenDCFC

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

MattMattMattUK

BenDCFC said:

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

That does not really make sense from a practical point of view so I would suspect someone made a knee-jerk decision and the company are now stuck with it, rather than working things out for practical purposes. Knowing that is not much help to anyone though.

BenDCFC said:

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

I understand why they do not let full teams work from home, most of the large companies I know have kept parts of most teams in the office, they have generally rotated them, but some people in that team (the Admin for example) has been in nearly every day to manage post, scanning, printing and outgoing mail. I agree that the decision on who gets a laptop does seem irrational (giving them to whoever happens to be in today), even if the underlying logic (50 people in a team, we have 30 laptops for people to work from home, so give those to 30 people) makes sense.

BenDCFC said:

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

The company does not need to give you the reason (although they should probably record their decision making in case the HSE question it), however it would probably make more sense if they explained it to staff to people can (try) and understand. Government has seemed to accept that it is reasonable for people to take laptops home, but that companies can allow, but it is not unreasonable to not allow staff to take desktops home and indeed staff with laptops can be required to come into the office.

I know there are complications relating to accessing some sensitive data outside the office as well. I have clients in financial services and healthcare and both will not allow certain data to be accessed outside of the office for security and data protection reasons, so the relevant staff have to go into the office, they have been very good at explaining that to their staff though. 

Tokmon

BenDCFC said:

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

I would say it's unlikely that it's reasonable for anyone at all to take a desktop PC home from work to use at home because how many people actually have empty desks at home with suitable chairs that allow them to use a Desktop PC at the right height and posture for an entire working day. Unless these people are unplugging their existing desktop PC's and plugging the company ones in their place each day which may make it suitable but then a lot of people who have never worked at home before will not be as productive if they have other family members around and have no separate room to work in.

BenDCFC

Tokmon said:

BenDCFC said:

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

I would say it's unlikely that it's reasonable for anyone at all to take a desktop PC home from work to use at home because how many people actually have empty desks at home with suitable chairs that allow them to use a Desktop PC at the right height and posture for an entire working day. Unless these people are unplugging their existing desktop PC's and plugging the company ones in their place each day which may make it suitable but then a lot of people who have never worked at home before will not be as productive if they have other family members around and have no separate room to work in.

I agree. The issue then is why not allow people who have the facilities to do so, especially considering 70+ people in another department have done the same thing.

Tokmon

BenDCFC said:

Tokmon said:

BenDCFC said:

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

I would say it's unlikely that it's reasonable for anyone at all to take a desktop PC home from work to use at home because how many people actually have empty desks at home with suitable chairs that allow them to use a Desktop PC at the right height and posture for an entire working day. Unless these people are unplugging their existing desktop PC's and plugging the company ones in their place each day which may make it suitable but then a lot of people who have never worked at home before will not be as productive if they have other family members around and have no separate room to work in.

I agree. The issue then is why not allow people who have the facilities to do so, especially considering 70+ people in another department have done the same thing.

Yes that would be the best way to do it but it seems like they have just let everyone take the laptops as they came in and won't buy more. It's fair enough they don't want to spend more on laptops but they should have managed the laptops better as they came in. 

BenDCFC

Tokmon said:

BenDCFC said:

Tokmon said:

BenDCFC said:

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

I would say it's unlikely that it's reasonable for anyone at all to take a desktop PC home from work to use at home because how many people actually have empty desks at home with suitable chairs that allow them to use a Desktop PC at the right height and posture for an entire working day. Unless these people are unplugging their existing desktop PC's and plugging the company ones in their place each day which may make it suitable but then a lot of people who have never worked at home before will not be as productive if they have other family members around and have no separate room to work in.

I agree. The issue then is why not allow people who have the facilities to do so, especially considering 70+ people in another department have done the same thing.

Yes that would be the best way to do it but it seems like they have just let everyone take the laptops as they came in and won't buy more. It's fair enough they don't want to spend more on laptops but they should have managed the laptops better as they came in. 

I agree again. I know colleagues wouldn’t be opposed to doing a rota with laptops, 10 days at home, 10 days in etc. 

Communication and transparency is really poor. 

I’d divulge a lot more but I don’t want to on a public forum I just wanted to check whether there were any actual rules for it

unholyangel

BenDCFC said:

Tokmon said:

BenDCFC said:

MattMattMattUK said:

BenDCFC said:

I guess my question is, should they be either buying laptops for us to work at home on, or allowing us to take desktops like other departments are? Or is it solely down to company choice?

No they should not be buying laptops for you, they can if they deem it reasonable, they do not have to and you can not force them to, it is entirely down to their choice. If they deem the office "Covid Secure" and they view that it is not viable for you to work from home then they can require you to work from the office, if you refuse then you have effectively made yourself unemployed.

BenDCFC said:

We are able to perform our job at home to the same standard we do in the office as the 1/5 of staff are already doing...

Just because it works with some people working from home does not mean it will work with all people working from home, it may also not be viable on a risk, cost or security basis, they may be suffering with bandwidth issues into their servers, people may not be as efficient if they have children at home (most people are nowhere near as efficient when their children are at home) etc.

They company probably worked out which staff could work most effectively from home and allowed those teams to work from home, reducing the numbers in the office and helping make it Covid Secure, that then allowed the remainder to work in the office safely. 

Thanks for you reply.

On the second point - the laptops that were provided to staff in our department were given out on one day, to whoever was in, so I don't think the case of working out who could work most effectively from home was taken into account. It was, we have laptops today, whoever is in take one, whoever is on a rota day off, isolating or holiday, unlucky. 

I think the issue most people are having who want to work from home is that they don't allow full teams to and I think people see that as unfair. So a colleague who was on a rota day off when the laptops were given out feels aggrieved that they missed out because it was their day off. 

The only reason I ask is that the guidelines are you should work from home unless it is unreasonable, and we haven't been given a reason why it's unreasonable to take desktops home when other departments are doing that, at an added cost.

Again, thanks for your reply

I would say it's unlikely that it's reasonable for anyone at all to take a desktop PC home from work to use at home because how many people actually have empty desks at home with suitable chairs that allow them to use a Desktop PC at the right height and posture for an entire working day. Unless these people are unplugging their existing desktop PC's and plugging the company ones in their place each day which may make it suitable but then a lot of people who have never worked at home before will not be as productive if they have other family members around and have no separate room to work in.

I agree. The issue then is why not allow people who have the facilities to do so, especially considering 70+ people in another department have done the same thing.

I think the problem is that they have not written that (work from home where reasonable to do so) into law, at least as far as I'm aware. Therefore employers are free to ignore, as long as they cover their backside with health and safety (such as risk assessments).

BenDCFC

unholyangel said:

I think the problem is that they have not written that (work from home where reasonable to do so) into law, at least as far as I'm aware. Therefore employers are free to ignore, as long as they cover their backside with health and safety (such as risk assessments).

Yeah that's what I was unsure/unaware of. If not anything else it's given me and other employee's a good insight into the company and it's workings/failings.

sheramber

My son and DIL  are working form home using their own laptops.

unforeseen

sheramber said:

My son and DIL  are working form home using their own laptops.

They are lucky. A lot of companies will not allow personal laptops to connect to their network.