Civil Enforcement - "On Claim for Debt"

Justme2020

Coupon-mad said:

You don't add evidence or images to a defence.  You are not at that stage yet and the NEWBIES thread tells you when that comes (later).

Noted, thanks. I'll remove the image and state that it can be provided along with WS later.KeithP said:

It is not clear from paras 2 or 3 whether the Defendant was the driver or not.

To me, that looks to be inviting the question from Court "were you the driver"?

Thanks Keith. I wasn't sure here based on my POPLA appeal where I didn't admit to being the driver, but to be fair, I didn't leave much ambiguity either. Should I just say I was driving?1505grandad said:

" It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle..................."

"The Defendant is the lessee of the vehicle"

I think that you are not the REGISTERED keeper.

It's a private lease. I am the registered keeper, not the owner (to confirm tomorrow with said lease company, but this has been the case in my 2 previous leases).

Redx

I cannot see how you can truthfully avoid the driver issue , one question in court destroys it and POFA compliance is out of the window !!

I also cannot see how you can have a lease but also be named on the V5C , the lease company should be on the V5C , even if they are not the owner ( ownership is irrelevant anyway )

On the 29th December you replied to me and you told me that you do not have the V5C !!

nosferatu1001

So go get your V5c, and tell us the DOCREF date. Dont guess

Look, if you have revealed the drivers identity, and only you know this because you havent shown us anything yet, then ditch POFA. 

Justme2020

Redx said:

I cannot see how you can truthfully avoid the driver issue , one question in court destroys it and POFA compliance is out of the window !!

I also cannot see how you can have a lease but also be named on the V5C , the lease company should be on the V5C , even if they are not the owner ( ownership is irrelevant anyway )

On the 29th December you replied to me and you told me that you do not have the V5C !!

You are correct. I mistook this for a previous PCP vehicle, but as a lease, I am not the owner nor the keeper (according to the lease company). 

The POPLA appeal doesn't explicitly name me as the driver, but comes fairly close.

This is the first time I've been through this, so apologies for all the questions I have (even after the Newbies thread). What would you suggest is the best line of defence? In my mind, I would go with the dark evening and the parking machine seeming to suggest fees only payable until 19:00 (which I paid up to).
Appreciate all of your wisdom.

Redx

A Driver defence is normally based on no landowner authority , poor and inadequate signage including unlit signage , BPA CoP or IPC CoP breaches , the CRA 2015 and anything else

A keeper based appeal starts with POFA compliance or failure , as well as the above points

However , a hirer or lessee can also use the POFA to their advantage if a driver is not proven or admitted, if there is a lease then you are a lessee , the entity who signed the lease , so cannot be an owner or a Registered keeper

A driver who dobs themselves in cannot rely on those last 2 paragraphs , leaving my first paragraph as applicable

If a driver does not defend as a driver , they are easily outed in court with one simple question

POFA protects a keeper who was not the driver

Lastly , your defence is mainly the coupon mad defence , your only input is required in paragraphs 2 & 3 , so 90% is already written

Coupon-mad

I would go with the dark evening and the parking machine seeming to suggest fees only payable until 19:00 (which I paid up to).

Yes. If you can prove that with photos taken in the pitch black, all the better chance.

Justme2020

Redx said:

A Driver defence is normally based on no landowner authority , poor and inadequate signage including unlit signage , BPA CoP or IPC CoP breaches , the CRA 2015 and anything else

A keeper based appeal starts with POFA compliance or failure , as well as the above points

However , a hirer or lessee can also use the POFA to their advantage if a driver is not proven or admitted, if there is a lease then you are a lessee , the entity who signed the lease , so cannot be an owner or a Registered keeper

A driver who dobs themselves in cannot rely on those last 2 paragraphs , leaving my first paragraph as applicable

If a driver does not defend as a driver , they are easily outed in court with one simple question

POFA protects a keeper who was not the driver

Lastly , your defence is mainly the coupon mad defence , your only input is required in paragraphs 2 & 3 , so 90% is already written

Thank you very much. I'll re-read (and can also paste here) the original POPLA, but I think it comes very close to me saying I was driving. As such, it might be Para 1 with a full explanation. Interestingly, the land owner (an independent hotel) claims that CEL are a meance and they have no way of escaping from their clutches. The way the manager explained it to me was that they never signed anything, leading me to think no landowner authority.Coupon-mad said:

I would go with the dark evening and the parking machine seeming to suggest fees only payable until 19:00 (which I paid up to).

Yes. If you can prove that with photos taken in the pitch black, all the better chance.

Thank you. I went back and took a photo of the ticket machine several weeks later. Whether it would stand up, I would hope so, if I go down that route and not the lease defence.

I didn't think that the lease company (Alphabet) were allowed to pass on my details unless it was for a legit PCN or speeding offence?

Redx

POFA and consumer contract law allows the parking company to get keeper details as long as they are in an ATA , so BPA or IPC , under a Kadoe contract with the DVLA. Landowners can also apply for keeper details , so there are many ways a company or landowner can obtain Keeper details , not just police , council's or other authorities

Even countries like Scotland and Northern Ireland are in that DVLA database in Swansea , so parking companies send them invoices too

So a lease company pass on hirer or lessee details under contract law as keeper , this should be covered in the lease agreement ,  the parking company should then issue a notice to hirer , NTH , that hirer is also asked to pass on driver details , which is their choice

Somebody owns that hotel land , it may not be the hotel , so somebody signed a contract with the PPC , doesn't look like the management are in the know , but somebody further up the chain knows

nosferatu1001

Show us pics of the signs. You definitely need them. 

Justme2020

nosferatu1001 said:

Show us pics of the signs. You definitely need them. 

The signs from the car park or the photo I took of the ticket machine? There is a conflict - their signs indicate fees in effect at all times but the photo of the meter suggests fees only until 7pm
would it being dark help stand up my defence?