Roofer messed up but won’t admit it - guarantee question

Sanne

Hi All,

Our porch flat roof had been leaking so we got a couple of roofers out to take a look. Their verdict was the same (outlet causing the problem) and we went with one who was recommended to us to fix the issue. The work was guaranteed for 10 years according to his quote.

Fast-forward a month and we’ve got a bigger leak than before - it was visible water ingress and now it’s actually constantly dripping down, having ruined the ceiling completely. I called said roofer who came out again yesterday who got incredibly defensive (I hadn’t even suggested it was caused by anything he did) and told me for half an hour how amazing he is, that there is no issue with his work and that it must be the flashing at the back which is properly rubbish, someone’s done a lazy job there etc. (When I questioned why he didn’t mention that when he initially came to take a look his response was “I was here to fix the issue, the obvious thing was the outlet but “the lead at the back, it’s proper crap mate”).
I didn’t buy his story (the location of the leak does not point to the flashing whatsoever) and got another roofer to take a look this morning (who knew that I needed a second opinion and that it might not lead to work for him). This roofer basically said the job had been done incorrectly and he’s surprised we don’t have even more leaks - he listed specific things that had been done wrongly so, to me, is trust-worthy. He will send me an email with those and I am planning to get back to roofer 1 with that.

Now - I’m certain that the first roofer will say it’s nothing to do with his work. He’s the super roofer who does a thorough job and everyone loves him. Obviously I’m not keen on paying someone else a a shedload of money to fix his work which should be guaranteed. But - what do I do next? I obviously have a leaking roof (quite a bit, too) so need this fixed.

Advice more than welcome - please let me know if any questions.

Grenage

I would go back to the roofer with the comments from the second roofer; give him a chance to sort it out.  Be clear that you're not interested in blame and you just want it done properly.

Sanne

Grenage said:

I would go back to the roofer with the comments from the second roofer; give him a chance to sort it out.

That’s the plan - though what do I do if he continues down his line of “nothing to do with me” - which, after his attitude and the show he put on yesterday I pretty much expect. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Sanne, do you know for certain where the water is getting through the roof? At the moment it's one roofer's judgement versus another.

The first guy says he sorted the original problem, and that your current - worse - leak is due to a different issue such as poor flashing. This may or may not be correct - we can't tell from here. The other guy seems pretty adamant that the first guy's job was not done properly.

Not sure what you mean by the problem being caused by the 'outlet' - can you explain please? Also, any chance of some photos, as well as an explanation of what the first guy actually did to 'fix' the roof? Include photos of the whole flat roof, including flashing.

Can I ask what sort of sum is involved here?

(The second guy you called out to assess the first guy's work - was that the roofer you didn't give the job to before?)

Anyhoo, whilst we wait for further details, IF the situation is as you say - first guy messed up and won't take responsibility - then the solution is easy but needs doing 'properly', ie using the correct wording in a letter or email (see CAB website); he is given a chance to sort it by X date, or else you'll get someone else to do it and then sue him for the cost - MoneryClaim.org. And you will win.

Sanne

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Sanne, do you know for certain where the water is getting through the roof? At the moment it's one roofer's judgement versus another.

The first guy says he sorted the original problem, and that your current - worse - leak is due to a different issue such as poor flashing. This may or may not be correct - we can't tell from here. The other guy seems pretty adamant that the first guy's job was not done properly.

Not sure what you mean by the problem being caused by the 'outlet' - can you explain please? Also, any chance of some photos, as well as an explanation of what the first guy actually did to 'fix' the roof? Include photos of the whole flat roof, including flashing.

Can I ask what sort of sum is involved here?

(The second guy you called out to assess the first guy's work - was that the roofer you didn't give the job to before?)

Anyhoo, whilst we wait for further details, IF the situation is as you say - first guy messed up and won't take responsibility - then the solution is easy but needs doing 'properly', ie using the correct wording in a letter or email (see CAB website); he is given a chance to sort it by X date, or else you'll get someone else to do it and then sue him for the cost - MoneryClaim.org. And you will win.

Thanks Jeepers, appreciated.
I’ve attached a picture of the previous outlet - you can see the hole on top of the roof to lead the water through that outlet pipe on the side.

We wouldn’t have been the first to have had issue with this in the neighbourhood and knew from our survey that there might be an issue - we had a (different again as couldn’t get hold of him this time around) roofer around right after buying the house two years ago who did the felt that looks newer (and replaced the flashing at the back, too, which isn’t in this photo). 

Roofer in question now then quoted for this work which he completed:

“On inspection of flat roof over porch doorway I came across a running outlet which is leaking causing water to seep into the porch ceiling. Works to be carried out. Remove upstand to right hand side of flat roof to allow water to run off. Torch on a new layer of underlay. Torch on a new layer of mineral felt to make roof water tight. Install gutter to right hand side of roof Plus new facia as existing has a hole in it. Install new down pipe in to front garden”

This is now after the work was completed 

This is the position of the leak - difficult to get a good photo at the moment because of the sun coming in, the longer bit on the side is where the original ingress was; the big next to it is new and actually dripping, it’s wet in a rectangular area around that new bit and moist towards the side where the previous ingress was). Everything is dry towards the back, this is sort of in the middle of the porch and going towards the door.

No, the second guy I called to come in now was a completely separate roofer (with a lot of recommendations on local Facebook pages) who was too busy to do the work. (He’s now booked up until March already but is reasonably local so was happy to come over to take a look for us).

Tried to get the flashing onto this one - as mentioned, that was done about two years ago when we bought the house.

Edit - the roofer today showed me a couple of close up photos where it looked like some of the felt wasn’t on properly. I will get a ladder out when my other half is in to take a look myself.

As part of his “show” yesterday the roofer - a bit aggressively while shouting how perfect his work is - ripped up some of the felt and later torched it back on again.
(He started tearing on the lead at the back, too, while shouting around how crap that is before I stopped him (so he doesn’t make things worse as it looked like he was about to tear it off to demonstrate his point - which he has done with the outlet pipe when he first quoted).
He then progressed to shout how s* the house has been painted and crumbled off some of the sandstone -  irrelevant to the roof but just to demonstrate why I  don’t have much trust in him after such behaviour.)

Edit 2 - we’re talking £500 for the repair job from said roofer.
Many thanks again!

Sanne

Just to follow up, I have taken part of the ceiling down and it’s definitely coming in through the roof and is not running down from the flashing (all dry at the back, soaking around where it’s come through). I’m not a roofer but common sense tells me that, if the water was coming from the flashings there’d be a sign of water towards the back. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Thanks for the excellent info, Sanne. Now I hope a roofer on here can look at it and comment :-)

All I think I can say is, the guy is clearly a bit of a twit. Write down everything that he said and did so you can refer to it later if you need to - which you might.

He has, tho', carried out a fair bit of work on your roof - apart from removing that edge fillet, it looks as tho' he's completely recovered the roof in felt? And fitted a gutter and downpipe. If this had been done properly, then it would probably have represented decent value.

I wonder where he's gone wrong, tho'? Why didn't he carry the felt right over that edge until it reached the gutter - instead there is a join running the full width? And is there a decent water deflector at the bottom of the felted part just above the gutter so that all that water ends up in the rone, or does some water run under that bottom lip and avoid the gutter?!

You have an invoice for the work, and a receipt for the payment? Cool. It's a shame the guy is so belligerent, because it seems to me (tho' I'm not a roofer) that he has carried out what should have been a good/the correct solution to the initial problem. It's likely that he has just not done it properly - eg if the felt hasn't been torched on properly.

I'd wait for confirmation from others on here as to the likely quality of the work, but now that you've exposed the ceiling to demonstrate that the guy was talking bar locks about where the water is coming through, you should have him over a barrel. The correct procedure, then, would be to draft a legally-correct letter (see CAB website for templates) explaining what needs to be done by him - which is to accurately ID where the water is coming in - ie what he' has done wrong - and then carry out a fix to your satisfaction. If he doesn't you'll get someone else to do so, and then sue him for the full cost - and you will win.

Sometimes you can justify not giving the original tradespeep a second chance, but that would usually be through them demonstrating complete incompetence so that you have no trust in their ability to do the job. Another reason is if they behave in a manner that causes you concern/distress/intimidation/fear/whatevs - that is just unacceptable, and he needs to be told this the next time he comes round.

Sanne

Jeepers_Creepers said:h

Thanks for the excellent info, Sanne. Now I hope a roofer on here can look at it and comment :-)

All I think I can say is, the guy is clearly a bit of a twit. Write down everything that he said and did so you can refer to it later if you need to - which you might.

He has, tho', carried out a fair bit of work on your roof - apart from removing that edge fillet, it looks as tho' he's completely recovered the roof in felt? And fitted a gutter and downpipe. If this had been done properly, then it would probably have represented decent value.

I wonder where he's gone wrong, tho'? Why didn't he carry the felt right over that edge until it reached the gutter - instead there is a join running the full width? And is there a decent water deflector at the bottom of the felted part just above the gutter so that all that water ends up in the rone, or does some water run under that bottom lip and avoid the gutter?!

You have an invoice for the work, and a receipt for the payment? Cool. It's a shame the guy is so belligerent, because it seems to me (tho' I'm not a roofer) that he has carried out what should have been a good/the correct solution to the initial problem. It's likely that he has just not done it properly - eg if the felt hasn't been torched on properly.

I'd wait for confirmation from others on here as to the likely quality of the work, but now that you've exposed the ceiling to demonstrate that the guy was talking bar locks about where the water is coming through, you should have him over a barrel. The correct procedure, then, would be to draft a legally-correct letter (see CAB website for templates) explaining what needs to be done by him - which is to accurately ID where the water is coming in - ie what he' has done wrong - and then carry out a fix to your satisfaction. If he doesn't you'll get someone else to do so, and then sue him for the full cost - and you will win.

Sometimes you can justify not giving the original tradespeep a second chance, but that would usually be through them demonstrating complete incompetence so that you have no trust in their ability to do the job. Another reason is if they behave in a manner that causes you concern/distress/intimidation/fear/whatevs - that is just unacceptable, and he needs to be told this the next time he comes round.

Thanks Jeepers

We have spoken to him again and he’s adamant he’s done a great job and the roof isn’t the issue. Heard some funny things - one was when he threatened to withdraw his guarantee as I have had another roofer look at it for another opinion and that the other roofer can’t say anything about the quality of his work without removing the layers of felt anyway 🤷‍♀️

He keeps saying it was a fix, not a new roof - that’s fine, but I’d expect a fix to not make things worse OR for the expert to be clear that it might not work / something else could be the issue so I can make an informed choice if I opt to have the fix done, two fixes done or  just a new roof instead. In which case I would imagine for them not to even offer a guarantee (as often the case for fixes, I’m aware).

The issue you mentioned was brought up by the roofer today; i.e. that the felt wasn’t fully folded over. There were several other issues (he’ll write this down for me so I’ve got them) though.

I’ve got an invoice, yes.

I think I’m close to a point where I’ll write off the £500 and get someone decent to sort it once and for all. I’m concerned he’s just going to bodge something IF he ever admits it’s not the lead.

Just glad I didn’t have the ceiling re-done yet - had downlights fitted across the house and all ceilings re-plastered and said to plasterer let’s do the porch next year when it’s a bit warmer. Thank goodness.

Jeepers_Creepers

It's your call what you decide to do, but I have to say that's not what I would do. A belligerent cowboy is getting away with it.

Has the new guy told you how much it would cost for him to redo it?

Normally you should allow tradespeeps an opportunity to make good their mistakes. However, in this case I think you could rightly justify cutting your ties with the first guy and refusing him a chance to made good his work - and successfully sue him for the recovery of the £500. From his behaviour and attitude, it is pretty clear he is not intending to maintain a working relationship with you. He refuses to acknowledge that he's made an error, he is aggressive in his manner, and he is trying to intimidate you by making threats such as withdrawing his guarantee (which he's already shown to be worthless - oh, the irony!)

What you'd need to do, however, is employ a fully independent surveyor to come out and write an impartial account of the roof; where is the water coming in, and why. That's it. Peasy, and shouldn't cost much.

Call up a local architect for recommendations, or perhaps your Trading Standards guy or BCO - they should know surveyors who'll do this.

But, it's your call.