VOA complaint and Council calls regarding my lodgers

HampshireH

This explains self contained

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.quoterack.co.uk/documents/Valuation_Office_Agency_-_Annexes_and_Council_Tax.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjK88jY_t_tAhXxURUIHfueBtgQFjAKegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1CMyFBKZWRi8u0sJ5G9lHo

rpgo

KatrinaWaves said:

Genuine question, if there is already a bathroom there, what was the purpose of a counter and sink, if not to provide a cooking space? None of my bedrooms have counters and sinks. 

The bedroom is pretty big and acts as a big open space. The counter and sink is more of a utility room (previous owner used it for washing paintbrushes and utensils for arts and crafts), it also used to have a machine to wash clothes.

HampshireH said:

Also by it's very nature a loft conversion is high and normally with dormer style windows or at least high normal ones.

How would your neighbours see in so high to see anything properly?

Could it be your tenant who has reported you? 

Properties across have similar extensions with windows at the same height.
My lodgers are people we know for some time. I'm also pretty sure they wouldn't know how to make this sort of elaborate escalating complaint. I believe it is landlords from the houses across that have been struggling to rent their rooms since they charge ridiculous amounts of money for identical rooms.

FreeBear

rpgo said:

KatrinaWaves said:

Genuine question, if there is already a bathroom there, what was the purpose of a counter and sink, if not to provide a cooking space? None of my bedrooms have counters and sinks. 

The bedroom is pretty big and acts as a big open space. The counter and sink is more of a utility room (previous owner used it for washing paintbrushes and utensils for arts and crafts)

The obvious thing to do is to simply remove the sink & counter. The plumbing can be very easily capped and then hidden by a piece of bedroom furniture. Once done, a few photos to show the space can not be used as a kitchen. Job done.

rpgo

FreeBear said:

rpgo said:

KatrinaWaves said:

Genuine question, if there is already a bathroom there, what was the purpose of a counter and sink, if not to provide a cooking space? None of my bedrooms have counters and sinks. 

The bedroom is pretty big and acts as a big open space. The counter and sink is more of a utility room (previous owner used it for washing paintbrushes and utensils for arts and crafts)

The obvious thing to do is to simply remove the sink & counter. The plumbing can be very easily capped and then hidden by a piece of bedroom furniture. Once done, a few photos to show the space can not be used as a kitchen. Job done.

According to the link provided earlier defining self-contained, it says it isn't enough as I can easily reinstate it later on.
So I'm thinking I might change the door to the bathroom so it can only be accessed through the landing and not the room, effectively changing the layout, making it "a significant change and voiding its original use and form".

greatcrested

Is there a cooker and/or microwave in the counter area?

There are many studio flats these days where the 'kitchen' is simply a corner of the main room, perhaps divided off by a worktop/cupboards.

If the attic has a sleeping area, a bathrom, a kitchen area with cooking facilities, all independant of the main house, you will struggle to claim it is not a self contained unit.

Remove all those cooking facilities so there is nothing other than a bedroom with ensuite, and the lodgers do all their cooking in your own kitchen.

patman99

Removing the sink and worktop and hiding the pipework with a piece of furniture is actually not a bad idea.

Just remember, the VOA will have no idead of what was there before.

If they ask about the pipework, be honest. Tell them that the previous owner used the loft space as an art studio and had installed a sink and worktop to use when cleaning their brushes, but as you had no use for either, you removed them and repurposed the area.

CIS

I find it very hard to understand what is a self contained flat, the more I research, the more confused I get. There is only one open space in the loft with a small partition and door for a bathroom.

The situation is almost entirely one of case law, 'self contained' is not defined anywhere in legislation.

There is a small counter and sink by the dormer wall window which is what the complainant is assuming is a kitchen, that's what I'm guessing. Which also raises the question, what is a kitchen? How do I prove it isn't a kitchen? One can argue that I can prepare meals in this counter, no matter how small it is.

Food preparation facilities, even minimal, can be sufficient.

The vendor might haven't foreseen it, but the solicitors and real estate must have.

Typically they don't - council tax is an area of law by itself and too often it gets ignored, leading to issues like this. Across the whole country I know of only 2 or 3 of us who actually specialise in council tax. I've seen some horrendous cases where there's been a solicitor who didn't know what they were doing.

rpgo

CIS said:

I find it very hard to understand what is a self contained flat, the more I research, the more confused I get. There is only one open space in the loft with a small partition and door for a bathroom.

The situation is almost entirely one of case law, 'self contained' is not defined anywhere in legislation.

There is a small counter and sink by the dormer wall window which is what the complainant is assuming is a kitchen, that's what I'm guessing. Which also raises the question, what is a kitchen? How do I prove it isn't a kitchen? One can argue that I can prepare meals in this counter, no matter how small it is.

Food preparation facilities, even minimal, can be sufficient.

The vendor might haven't foreseen it, but the solicitors and real estate must have.

Typically they don't - council tax is an area of law by itself and too often it gets ignored, leading to issues like this. Across the whole country I know of only 2 or 3 of us who actually specialise in council tax. I've seen some horrendous cases where there's been a solicitor who didn't know what they were doing.

If I were to move the access door to the bathroom from the room to the landing area (communal area) would it make it not self-contained? Since I need to leave the room through a door, go through a communal area and through a second door to go to the toilet/have a shower? It seems like moving the door would be the least amount of work I could do to change the floor layout and void the self-contained status. I've always wanted to move that door in the first place anyway, as it frees more space in the room and utilises the landing some more.

CIS

rpgo said:

If I were to move the access door to the bathroom from the room to the landing area (communal area) would it make it not self-contained? Since I need to leave the room through a door, go through a communal area and through a second door to go to the toilet/have a shower? It seems like moving the door would be the least amount of work I could do to change the floor layout and void the self-contained status. I've always wanted to move that door in the first place anyway, as it frees more space in the room and utilises the landing some more.

You'd have to ask the VOA as to whether or not that would be sufficient but, not having facilities directly connected to the room does not always mean that it's not banded (for banding purposes there's more than one way in  which a property can be banded - self containment is only one of the conisderations).

rpgo

CIS said:

rpgo said:

If I were to move the access door to the bathroom from the room to the landing area (communal area) would it make it not self-contained? Since I need to leave the room through a door, go through a communal area and through a second door to go to the toilet/have a shower? It seems like moving the door would be the least amount of work I could do to change the floor layout and void the self-contained status. I've always wanted to move that door in the first place anyway, as it frees more space in the room and utilises the landing some more.

You'd have to ask the VOA as to whether or not that would be sufficient but, not having facilities directly connected to the room does not always mean that it's not banded (for banding purposes there's more than one way in  which a property can be banded - self containment is only one of the conisderations).

I've read most of this: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/council-tax-manual/council-tax-practice-notes#practice-note-5-disaggregation-of-dwellings
Specially point 6.0 on wards. It seems like I fit perfectly into Jorgensen v Gomperts 2006 with the only exception that I haven't been visited by a Listing Officer.
The people that live on what they claim is a self-contained flat, are not limited to it. It wasn't built purposely for them. They use an office, kitchen and living room on the lower floors. No locks have been added to any doors. There are no restrictions as to where all the people that live in the house can go, exception only to a gentlemen agreement of avoiding using a certain toilet so it only gets used by 2 people at most. A simple hygienic house rule that can easily be broken when the other 2 people are not around since there are no door locks.


I've tried to contact VOA and sadly can't reach anyone. I reckon I won't be able to until next year.