Questions re 28 Day Wait to transfer to New Supplier

[Deleted User]

As a Yorkshire ex-customer ( in limbo until SP transfer me), I have been looking through the experiences of the former Tonik customers who have had the same SOLR company (Scottish Power).  As far as I can make out any transfers (away from Scottish Power) will almost certainly be rejected immediately until such time as the electricity and gas databases are updated to reflect our new supplier.  That I understand clearly enough. 

(1)  So would these databases reflect the Ofgem date that SP took over responsibility for our supply 6th December or will this date be at whatever date these databases are actually updated?
(2)  I saw a reference to the date and future transfers  

you can change your energy provider every 28 days from when you're updated on national database

So, if this is true and is the case,  will this 28 days apply from 6th December, or will it apply from the actual date of transfer registered on the 2 systems?  Because if it is the former, then the earliest date transfers away from SP can be initiated will be 3rd January and obviously much later if we are reliant on SP to interface with these gas and electricity supply databases in a timely fashion.

(3)  Am I right to assume that the issue of whether or not SP have fully created our account is in a sense immaterial in being about to start a transfer so long as SP is registered as my supplier on these 2 supply databases. 

Neil_Jones

1) The databases will update automatically once SP take over.

2) You can change provider as often as you like, it just takes up to 28 days to switch, which effectively caps the number of switches you can do in a year, otherwise you'd spend all your time between providers.

3) Its immaterial if you plan to move away, but be aware you will still need to pay Scottish Power for the three/four/six weeks you are with them once this transfer has gone through.

Consider the entire saga as just another switch, albeit only one that you haven't started yourself.  Works in near enough the same way.

[Deleted User]

The thing I am getting at here is that once we have transferred to Scottish - as shown by the industry databases, we are then at liberty to initiate a transfer to another supplier?  We don't need to wait another 28 days from that point before initiating dialogue with a new supplier.  The 28 days refers to the additional time it takes to transfer away from Scottish if I am interpreting this correctly.  

Neil_Jones

As I say, you can move providers at any time.  You can join Dalek Energy today, go through the sign up and decide to push off to Simpsons Energy the very next day once your accounts have been set up with Dalek.

Things can get complicated if you try to move provider again while you're en-route to another one at the time.  Like saying you decide to buy a car, then see a better car and you arrange to sell the first car before you've received it.

JFozzy

We had just moved suppliers to SoEnergy before this news broke - and were £150 in credit with Yorks Energy and expecting a refund - any ideas how we go about getting that now?

Phones4Chris

[Deleted User] said:

The thing I am getting at here is that once we have transferred to Scottish - as shown by the industry databases, we are then at liberty to initiate a transfer to another supplier?  We don't need to wait another 28 days from that point before initiating dialogue with a new supplier.  The 28 days refers to the additional time it takes to transfer away from Scottish if I am interpreting this correctly.  

I don't know where this 28 days came from but a routine switch in Electricity provider should be completed in 21 days according to OFGEM. It often takes a couple of days less (but not less than 14 for some reason). It may be that as a SoLR, SP have 28 days to get you switched from YE, but once SP are showing on the relevant national database as your supplier, you can initiate a switch. It may take some time for your "account" with SP and any money you owe (or they owe you) including any balance from YE, to catch up - you still have to pay SP for the energy from the 6th December until you are switched to a new supplier. As SP are at last now showing as my supplier I'm off to start a switch.

[Deleted User]

 Phones4Chris said:

DerwentMailman said:

The thing I am getting at here is that once we have transferred to Scottish - as shown by the industry databases, we are then at liberty to initiate a transfer to another supplier?  We don't need to wait another 28 days from that point before initiating dialogue with a new supplier.  The 28 days refers to the additional time it takes to transfer away from Scottish if I am interpreting this correctly.  

I don't know where this 28 days came from but a routine switch in Electricity provider should be completed in 21 days according to OFGEM. It often takes a couple of days less (but not less than 14 for some reason). It may be that as a SoLR, SP have 28 days to get you switched from YE, but once SP are showing on the relevant national database as your supplier, you can initiate a switch. It may take some time for your "account" with SP and any money you owe (or they owe you) including any balance from YE, to catch up - you still have to pay SP for the energy from the 6th December until you are switched to a new supplier. As SP are at last now showing as my supplier I'm off to start a switch.

By now you will have read the lengthy reply from masonic in the main YE thread howing several references that you required and where the 28 day rule came from.  If you now re-read my original questions, I was asking where the 28 days applied from - Ofgem's notification date or the database transfer date(s)?

The situation that currently exists for former YE customers is most definitely not routine as you are well aware.  Why would you think that the normal 17-21 day transfer time will be the norm for SOLR switches as it the case from YE to SP?

 And here is another one should you care to digest the rather scant and vague information (certainly about timescales) that exists re the SOLR process and what one can expect.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2017/09/solr_revised_guidance_final_21-10-2016.pdf

It is the timing of any unrejected switches away from SP that is the issue for me and many others.  We are now at Ofgems 28th day since notification and many customers have had their databases updated for one or both utilities (yes for electricity not yet for gas in my case).  When I started this thread I wanted clarification about when to time a switch such that it was not going to be rejected and I did not to have to start ringing up the rejected supplier to ask them to re-submit.  As yet I am not convinced that I can initiate an unrejected switch (especially as gas has not yet been updated) but others may feel they have all their ducks lined up to be successful.  Once both my utilities are registered to me and there are reports of unrejected transfers then I will consider a transfer away from SP.   We are probably all very close to being at this position but at the date of the original post in this thread started by me we were less than 2 weeks into the process.

masonic

An Ofgem paper from a few years ago stated that a supplier cannot submit an advanced registration for a meter point until the 11th working day after the old supplier has been registered as supplier of that meter, citing the Master Registration Agreement in force at that time: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2016/04/agenda_item_4-advance_registrations_paper.pdf See page 4 and appendix 3. The specific condition cited was 15.5.3.

The current Master Registration Agreement (last updated 21st August 2020, https://www.mrasco.com/download/6454/) has had that condition removed and it appears there is no longer a lockout period after a switch has been registered on the database.

[Deleted User]

Wow that is a weighty document (esp the 2nd one) almost as big as the new Brexit deal document
Re the lockout period,  I hope that this translates into the aspiration that an unrejected switch can be initiated as soon as I am registered on BOTH databases.  I'm sure we will all find out in the coming days.

Phones4Chris

[Deleted User] said:

 Phones4Chris said:

[Deleted User] said:

The thing I am getting at here is that once we have transferred to Scottish - as shown by the industry databases, we are then at liberty to initiate a transfer to another supplier?  We don't need to wait another 28 days from that point before initiating dialogue with a new supplier.  The 28 days refers to the additional time it takes to transfer away from Scottish if I am interpreting this correctly.  

I don't know where this 28 days came from but a routine switch in Electricity provider should be completed in 21 days according to OFGEM. It often takes a couple of days less (but not less than 14 for some reason). It may be that as a SoLR, SP have 28 days to get you switched from YE, but once SP are showing on the relevant national database as your supplier, you can initiate a switch. It may take some time for your "account" with SP and any money you owe (or they owe you) including any balance from YE, to catch up - you still have to pay SP for the energy from the 6th December until you are switched to a new supplier. As SP are at last now showing as my supplier I'm off to start a switch.

By now you will have read the lengthy reply from masonic in the main YE thread howing several references that you required and where the 28 day rule came from.  If you now re-read my original questions, I was asking where the 28 days applied from - Ofgem's notification date or the database transfer date(s)?

I see you didn't refer in your last post above to all @masonic's edits to his posts in the YE thread, where it's now obvious as stated in his last post above, that you've all been referring to historic information that no longer applies. If you'd searched OFGEM's site as I did, you may have discovered that. Also, it's very bad practice for anyone to quote such information from other websites because they are not the rule makers, OFGEM are, if the information doesn't come from the "horse's mouth" it cannot be relied on. Have you not noticed in your travels around the www (not just energy, anything) how they can be showing incorrect information, either because it was wrong in the first place, or it hasn't been updated to reflect the current situation! That's the trouble with social media, someone posts information that is wrong or out-of-date and others repeat it.
In practical terms there could be a variety of reasons why switches might take 28 days to initiate, but that is different from having a rule that says you can't!

If you current supplier is correctly showing on the relevant national database and you initiate a switch that fails, it's possible or likely your current supplier is blocking it, so you get back to them and kick them hard. I noted someone in the YE thread had  a fail, got their new supplier to immediately try again and it was successful.

masonic

masonic said:

An Ofgem paper from a few years ago stated that a supplier cannot submit an advanced registration for a meter point until the 11th working day after the old supplier has been registered as supplier of that meter, citing the Master Registration Agreement in force at that time: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2016/04/agenda_item_4-advance_registrations_paper.pdf See page 4 and appendix 3. The specific condition cited was 15.5.3.

The current Master Registration Agreement (last updated 21st August 2020, https://www.mrasco.com/download/6454/) has had that condition removed and it appears there is no longer a lockout period after a switch has been registered on the database.

It has been pointed out to me that the 10 working day lockout condition is still in the latest version of the MRA, it has been moved to a different part of the clause, now 15.5.C(A):
"15.5 Valid Application for Registration for the purposes of this Clause 15 is one that:
...
15.5.C is received by the relevant MPAS Provider on or after the later of:
(A) the  eleventh  Working  Day  following  the  date  when  the  relevant MPAS  Provider  has  Registered  the  Old  Supplier  for  the  relevant Metering Point;
and (B) the Supply Start Date provided by that Old Supplier;"

Apologies for missing it. So an advanced registration should not be submitted for 10 working days after the old supplier is registered as supplier. However, there are still some unknowns:

• what is the date when the relevant MPAS Provider Registers the Old Supplier for the relevant Metering Point in the case of a SoLR transfer? Is it the date the database is updated, or backdated to the date they are appointed SoLR and can bill customers for energy (in the case of YE --> SP SoLR transfer it has been confirmed that the database has not been backdated)
  
• when will the new supplier submit the advanced registration? Is it on day 1 of the transfer (seems not to be the case), or later. It could be done at the end of the 14 day cooling off period and may vary by supplier.

When the 10 working day lockout period and the 14 calendar day cooling off period run consecutively, then it is not possible to switch more than once every 28 days. However, if a supplier is willing to allow the lockout period and cooling off period to run concurrently, it would be possible to switch as frequently as every 14 days, while the minimum practical time for a switch is 17 days. The Ofgem paper around advanced registrations points out that an advanced registration can be submitted any time up to the day before the switch is due to take place, and as such the gaining supplier can resubmit the advanced registration later on during the cooling off period should they be willing, thus preserving the originally quoted switching date.

Discussion in the Yorkshire Energy thread has confirmed that in practice this is what is going on (see this post).