'Fluttering Ticket' draft defense letter for review

Liliput_7

Hiya, 

Thank you so much for the wealth of knowledge and resource on this forum, it really is incredible. 

I received a parking fine back in Jan 2018 when I left my parking ticket upside down on the dashboard (it was dark, early, I was jet lagged and late for the gym!) I've finally got to the Claim stage (issue date 23/11/2020) and submitted my AoS so have until the 26th December for my defence. 

I have drafted the 2 sections I have to replace in the template below: 

The facts as known to the Defendant:

2.       It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, but liability is denied. It is admitted that the Defendant was the driver of the vehicle. 

3.       The Defendant purchased, and still has in their possession, a valid parking ticket for the period the vehicle in question was parked at the location. It was dark and, in a rush, the defendant placed the ticket upside down on the dashboard. The terms and conditions on the sign next to the parking meter were blanked out. The defendant has photographic evidence that the sign was missing terms and conditions. 

Is this detailed enough? 

Is it worth including the statement about the signage? I've added this because the initial response when I appealed was 'This is a pay and display car park and the terms and conditions state that you must display a valid pay and display ticket within the windscreen' and 'you did not comply with the terms and conditions and you ticket was not clearly displayed'. But I'm not sure it feels relevant in the defence without also adding this narrative. 

Finally, I have since resourced an email address from a colleague for the guy at the car park who has got PCNs cancelled in similar situations. I assumed it's too late to both emailing them now? 

Thanks again so much for your help

Redx

Name the parking company , plus any legal acting on their behalf

eMail a SAR to the DPO at the PPC , if not done already
Attach a copy of the claim form as proof of I D under the GDPR law to the email

The 26th is incorrect , it's normally a bank holiday , never mind actually a saturday so the BH is the following monday

It's never , never too late to get landowners or employers or retailers involved

KeithP

Liliput_7 said:

I've finally got to the Claim stage (issue date 23/11/2020) and submitted my AoS so have until the 26th December for my defence.

For the moment I'll assume that you filed an Acknowledgment of Service sometime after 25th November. Please confirm. Your MCOL Claim History will have the definitive answer.

With a Claim Issue Date of 23rd November, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Tuesday 29th December 2020 to file your Defence.

That's over two weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.

Coupon-mad

 It was dark and, in a rush, the defendant placed the ticket upside down on the dashboard.

No, you did not, and you are not to say you were ''in a rush''.  Why do people assume they were at fault? 

What else do you think may have happened?  

Also, there have been some really good fluttering ticket defences on here that mention the Local Authority Adjudicators' view in a couple of key cases. 

Please search for fluttering ticket defence.

Is it worth including the statement about the signage? 

Given that the sign creates the contract and you DID NOT agree to pay £100, you would be mad to delete anything so important from the template...

Le_Kirk

Even if the ticket had been turned upside down by some vicissitude (wind blowing through the vents, someone "accidentally" knocking the car) there is usually a serial number on the reverse of the ticket so that a PPC can see that is is valid if they were to check their systems.  If there isn't, that is the fault of the PPC and they have contributed to the issue and in no way is it your fault.

Redx

It could also provide the argument that the ticket is not fit for purpose and perhaps both sides should be printed so that it does not matter which side is up , if the issuer wanted to ensure this known problem could not happen !!

Liliput_7

Thank you all for your comments, it's so helpful.

Coupon-mad said:

 It was dark and, in a rush, the defendant placed the ticket upside down on the dashboard.

No, you did not, and you are not to say you were ''in a rush''.  Why do people assume they were at fault? 

What else do you think may have happened?  

Also, there have been some really good fluttering ticket defences on here that mention the Local Authority Adjudicators' view in a couple of key cases. 

Please search for fluttering ticket defence.

Is it worth including the statement about the signage? 

Given that the sign creates the contract and you DID NOT agree to pay £100, you would be mad to delete anything so important from the template...

I had not considered I shouldnt be admitting to placing it upside down.  

Yes, I submitted my AoS on 30/11/2020.  I had searched for fluttering ticket posts as I didnt want to waste your time if there was already an example I could use. I didnt find anything, but I will look harder!   I have read the newbies post in detail several times, and it has really helped me understand the steps I need to take, so thank you so much. 

Le_Kirk said:

Even if the ticket had been turned upside down by some vicissitude (wind blowing through the vents, someone "accidentally" knocking the car) there is usually a serial number on the reverse of the ticket so that a PPC can see that is is valid if they were to check their systems.  If there isn't, that is the fault of the PPC and they have contributed to the issue and in no way is it your fault.

You are right! There is a serial number on the reverse of the ticket. So do I just remove the bit that about putting it upside down? 

The facts as known to the Defendant:

2.       It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, but liability is denied. It is admitted that the Defendant was the driver of the vehicle. 

3.       The Defendant purchased, and still has in their possession, a valid parking ticket for the period the vehicle in question was parked at the location. It was dark and the terms and conditions on the sign next to the parking meter were blanked out. The defendant has photographic evidence that the sign was missing terms and conditions. 

Thanks again so much for your help. 

Coupon-mad

You didn't place it upside down.  Of course you remove the bit blaming yourself!

 Read some fluttering ticket defence threads.  Copy what they wrote about fluttering tickets.

nosferatu1001

Do you know you placed it upside down? Or are you assuming so? 

Liliput_7

I guess it's an assumption, but I dont know what else could have happened! Am I best to say I believe I placed it correctly in view but not aware of what could have happened since to change that, but make some suggestions (wind blowing through the vents, someone "accidentally" knocking the car like Le_Kirk's suggestion? )

I am trying to search and read related fluttering ticket threads, but most of the search results that come back are suggestions to search for fluttering ticket threads!   I have found one that lost... which has made me wonder if I'm in out of my depth already and don't have the energy, despite really wanting to fight it!

.. and this one that seems more useful. 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6066842/upside-down-fluttered-ticket-in-private-car-park/p2

I will perhaps use the section around "The orientation of the ticket was not a condition specified or agreed to with the terms and conditions of the signage at the private carpark."  since I do have the photo of the sign that shows the t&s blanked out. 

I appreciate your help, and I also appreciate 'newbies' must be frustrating to you, but the volume of information in all the threads is very overwhelming, on top of an already overwhelming situation. So thanks for your patience. 

Coupon-mad

The one you linked isn't a defence, it's a POPLA appeal bit has a useful line or two, which is all you need to add to #2 and #3 of the template. 

We just wanted you to stop blaming yourself and ruining a decent defence stance by talking about 'being in a rush' etc.  You would NOT have deliberately placed a ticket upside down and agreed to pay £100 for doing that!  You probably placed it the right way up when you exited the car and maybe the wind caught it as the door closed, or maybe the ticketer rocked the car.