Unanswerable question in NatWest 'scam' form

WatlingA5

We're dealing with a scam that caught us out (occasionally something happens to remind you, belatedly, that you're not always on the alert... )

It concerned "free" cosmetic samples but at checkout, there was a p&p charge of around £5. However, three withdrawals, totalling a couple of hundred pounds, were made in 60 seconds, none of them approved by us. Then a fourth payment was taken on Friday (Dec 11) and was still in the Pending section of the account. We quickly got on to NatWest security, who were efficiently quick in answering the phone (on a Friday evening!) and took the basics, got the card blocked, and we were then passed on to the appropriate section, who took full details and arranged for a claim form to be emailed. It was fairly easy to answer the questions apart from one (now paraphrasing from memory): "Which was the first transaction - the one you are happy not to contest... ). Being unable to respond that we were anything but happy with any of them, prevented us getting any further for the time being. So advice would be welcome :-) 

After metaphorically smacking ourselves on the wrist, we did a bit of far-too-late research and found we were by no means the only victims. I could offer some links on what to watch for, but doubt MSE rules allow them. 

born_again

Sadly this is not a scam. Just a very well (sic) worded adverts, that use words not always in the way people think they are meant.
You can only look at disputing any payments after it has been cancelled, or if you have not received any of the goods (note the 1st large debit, is usually to pay for the FREE trial goods, that you have not returned within the 14 days)
When they say "FREE TRIAL" it is trial period, not free product.

As a guide I have known these for at least 10 years. Started of with acai berry tea. And has grown to many other products over the years.

Uxb1

I've likewise seen these around for ages
You get a free trial of something sent to you and in the small print on the bottom of page 112 of the website it says that it's only free if you return the sample or whatever by recorded delivery post within x days.  Then you find that actually you cannot do this as the return address is (in the examples I've seen) an address in Israel and one in S.Africa. Even if you did return it by normal post you can guarantee that it will never be received - ever - lost 100% of the time!
The unfortunates who signed up for this then as per the OP gets lots of payment deducted.

naedanger

WatlingA5 said:

We're dealing with a scam that caught us out (occasionally something happens to remind you, belatedly, that you're not always on the alert... )

It concerned "free" cosmetic samples but at checkout, there was a p&p charge of around £5. However, three withdrawals, totalling a couple of hundred pounds, were made in 60 seconds, none of them approved by us. Then a fourth payment was taken on Friday (Dec 11) and was still in the Pending section of the account. We quickly got on to NatWest security, who were efficiently quick in answering the phone (on a Friday evening!) and took the basics, got the card blocked, and we were then passed on to the appropriate section, who took full details and arranged for a claim form to be emailed. It was fairly easy to answer the questions apart from one (now paraphrasing from memory): "Which was the first transaction - the one you are happy not to contest... ). Being unable to respond that we were anything but happy with any of them, prevented us getting any further for the time being. So advice would be welcome :-) 

After metaphorically smacking ourselves on the wrist, we did a bit of far-too-late research and found we were by no means the only victims. I could offer some links on what to watch for, but doubt MSE rules allow them. 

Presumably the answer is the transaction for £5, or am I misunderstanding.

WatlingA5

naedanger said:

Presumably the answer is the transaction for £5, or am I misunderstanding.

Hi naedanger (sounds like something my mum used to say...)

It would have been the £5, but in fact three transactions went through in 60 seconds - at £15, £70 and £90. Unfortunately the family member concerned (no names because they're embarrassed enough!) didn't register it had happened until the fourth one appeared on the statement at the weekend and we were able to take action. 

For the record, it was a "free GIFT" (cosmetics) not a trial. I found a site called scamdoc which rated the vendor as 4% trustworthy and gives a link to whois - which showed that all details for the vendor are "redacted for privacy" apart from using Namecheap - enough in itself to warrant a double-check about any serious commercial body. 

Also, one of their products has just two reviews in Trustpilot. Both report the same scam - you click to send £3 or so and find £80-90 has been taken. Strangely, each review has just the minimum one star, but Trustpilot shows an "average" of 2.9 stars. I failed maths GCE big time but even I don't need a calculator to compute 1+1 divided by two...

And my relative now knows to give me a chance to check with me first... 

naedanger

WatlingA5 said:

naedanger said:

Presumably the answer is the transaction for £5, or am I misunderstanding.

Hi naedanger (sounds like something my mum used to say...)

It would have been the £5, but in fact three transactions went through in 60 seconds - at £15, £70 and £90. Unfortunately the family member concerned (no names because they're embarrassed enough!) didn't register it had happened until the fourth one appeared on the statement at the weekend and we were able to take action. 

For the record, it was a "free GIFT" (cosmetics) not a trial. I found a site called scamdoc which rated the vendor as 4% trustworthy and gives a link to whois - which showed that all details for the vendor are "redacted for privacy" apart from using Namecheap - enough in itself to warrant a double-check about any serious commercial body. 

Also, one of their products has just two reviews in Trustpilot. Both report the same scam - you click to send £3 or so and find £80-90 has been taken. Strangely, each review has just the minimum one star, but Trustpilot shows an "average" of 2.9 stars. I failed maths GCE big time but even I don't need a calculator to compute 1+1 divided by two...

And my relative now knows to give me a chance to check with me first... 

Well I wouldn't worry too much about answering the question precisely. You just want to get the complaint process kicked off. You could look at all your credit card transactions online and give the last transaction before the £15 transaction. Alternatively just give the £15 transaction and later, once the dialogue is started, explain that £10 of the £15 is also disputed.

Also don't be discouraged if anyone at the bank suggests you weren't scammed simply because the full details are buried somewhere in the small print. If the website was designed to deceive, even if technically accurate, then it is a scam. And if you have to take your complaint to the  Financial Ombudsman Service, I would expect them to agree (although obviously I  cannot guarantee it). So in summary your argument is the website was designed to deceive, you fell for that deception and so there was no mutual agreement, and in particular you only agreed to £5 being taken.

dcs34

The question is asked so that, if the £5 payment had gone through as a legitimate payment, and the various payments after it were the scams, NatWest would know not to adjust that one.

As all the payments are 'fraudulent', put "N/A"

born_again

WatlingA5 Just ring your bank.
All they can do is put a stop on future payments. But that is easily done over the phone.

Sadly dcs34 they are not fraudulent as the OP agreed to the payments as per T/C. As far as a bank goes fraud is when a unknown 3rd party uses your card, not when it is a site that has been visited and card details entered by card holder. Not even a dispute right on any of the payments other than if cancelled and payment taken afterwards, or no goods arrive.

Eco_Miser

born_again said:

Sadly dcs34 they are not fraudulent as the OP agreed to the payments as per T/C. As far as a bank goes fraud is when a unknown 3rd party uses your card, not when it is a site that has been visited and card details entered by card holder. Not even a dispute right on any of the payments other than if cancelled and payment taken afterwards, or no goods arrive.

Not even if you use your card to pay £1 and the site takes £1000?

Can you give a link to a definitive source for this please, because this seems to make using a card very dangerous to financial health.

born_again

The source is years of doing the role. We have tried all sorts to claim money back, but these companies have it all covered, so card regulations are not breeched.
If you agree to £1 (and can prove it) and the retailer takes £1000  then you have dispute options.

The companies such as the OP has used have it all covered in their T/C and their wording is pretty clear, just not how many people take it.
Free Trial = Trial period, not as I and everyone else would take as a free product to trial. You pay P&P on the free trial & if not cancelled, they then charge you the full price for the product.
Gift = pay P&P for it, do not send it back, or contact us to say you do not want any more = They will keep sending goods each month.

Scary stuff these companies.
If the product is so good, why do they want you to pay such a small amount for P&P. That is the tell tale sign. It's just to get you card details & the cover is in their T/C.

WatlingA5

Thanks - we have replacement debit card now. Thanks to browser history I was able to study the payment page. It featured 'Hurry Now' type lines including a countdown that started at about 15 seconds. When it stopped, it showed a static line for about 15 seconds then repeated the countdown. A big colourful arrow pointed to the payment section, so your eye is drawn to the right and you can easily miss the small-print panel below the arrow. There is not even a T&C headline. As born_again says, they really have it tied up and we see little point in making a claim.