Euro Car Parks PCN - first appeal rejected

nilsaj

First time posting hope I'm doing this right. On 27th October the driver entered an ECP car park at 6:53pm, paid £1 for a one-hour ticket, ended up staying until 9:52pm because they were at a restaurant, also because they mistakenly thought parking was free after 8pm (the signs actually state that there's a different rate for after 8pm but the driver didn't read this correctly/thought the sign was confusing). The driver was with a friend who has received an identical PCN, both were POFA compliant. The PCN is £100, £60 if paid within 14 days.

They did not ask the retailer to clear the charge because 1. they no longer have the receipt to prove they ate there and 2. it's not clear who the retailer of the car-park is. It's just a random car park, a few minutes walking distance from the restaurant.

The registered keepers received the letter PCN (there was no window ticket) on the 12th or 13th November, which we thought was strange because the date of issue said 4th November yet it took almost a week to be delivered?

Anyway, I have read the newbie thread, we both appealed using the blue text through ECPs website. They have obviously rejected the appeal so now there's 28 days to draft the appeal to POPLA. We will obviously go for:

1. No landowner authority
2. The very long 'signs are not prominent' text
3. Operator has not shown that the individuals it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge (this is actually true, the registered keeper was not the driver on the day but has chosen not to name the driver)
4. Euro Car Parks NTK ’issued/given' dates conflict and do not comply with POFA 2012 Schedule 4 - No Keeper Liability (not sure about this one?)
5. No planning permission (can't find planning permission for signage/ANPR on the council website)
6. BPA Code of Practice - photos in PCN were retouched/digitally altered: the date and time stamp were not a part of the photo but listed beneath the cropped image of the number plate
7. Signs fail to transparently warn drivers what the ANPR will be used for

Here are photos of the sign that the driver paid at and the PCN, the signage however would have been viewed at night in the rain and we plan to get photos of it at night:
xxxxx://imgur. com/a/kjWaEbS

Please let me know if any of the points listed won't be worth mentioning, or if there's anything we've missed that we should include? Thanks!

Coupon-mad

I think you will lose at POPLA due to this huge overstay, unless your photos of the signs in the dark make it obvious that the terms for after 8pm are unreadable:

On 27th October the driver entered an ECP car park at 6:53pm, paid £1 for a one-hour ticket, ended up staying until 9:52pm because they were at a restaurant, also because they mistakenly thought parking was free after 8pm (the signs actually state that there's a different rate for after 8pm but the driver didn't read this correctly/thought the sign was confusing). The driver was with a friend who has received an identical PCN, both were POFA compliant. The PCN is £100, £60 if paid within 14 days.

Redx

3 is no good if they complied with POFA , because POFA compliance holds a keeper liable irrespective of who was driving

I would expect that ECP complied with POFA , so no traction on 4 if they did

5 has never upheld a popla appeal , they consider it a separate council issue

6 is common , anpr deduces the VRM details and they are usually added below on ones I have seen

The crucial factors here are the timestamps and metadata to show they are correct and not tampered with , so I do not think that 6 is any good to you either

ECP tend to comply with POFA , so no landowner authority and poor signage and lighting tend to assist an apellant like you

nilsaj

Thanks for your quick reply. That is understandable, in this case is it worth appealing to POPLA then, or would you recommend we just continue to ignore ECP from here on out?

From what I read about ECP, they don't do court? Although I assume if they did try to take us to court, we would lose due to the huge overstay? There is still a couple days until the £60 expires so I'm wondering whether to suck it up and pay even though I really don't want to.

Redx

My gut feeling is you can only win on poor signage , but by paying for one hour it can be deemed that the signs were read and understood , plus subsequently no extra payments were made to cover any shortfall , ergo bilking occurred

A tough one to win at Popla or in Court , IMHO

Never say never regarding court claims , 6 years is a long time

Coupon-mad

ECP sometimes do court and more PPCs may do in 2020/21 due to the fact their 'income' has plunged by some 80% down, due to COVID.  We reckon ANPR firms are worst hit because there just aren't as many people hanging out (if at all) at supermarkets, hotels, cinemas., hospitals, etc.

If it were me I'd get those pics of the signs (without a flash, pitch black) and the PDT machine used, to see if you have evidence that the 'after 8pm' tariff was unreadable.

The problem with the NTK arriving late is that it was dated in time and you can't prove either way.

wannadancewithsomebody

use your POPLa code wizly get your popla appeal in ASAP , and join the many many thousands of other people waiting in a never ending queue , the world might have imploded before popla are able to deal with your appeal , whilst this is happening NO debt collectors and the likes of euro going under due to low cash flow 

wannadancewithsomebody

tyo add to the above (because I cannot edit) 

Euro Car Parks PCN - first appeal rejected

did you both get POPLa codes ?