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Landlord licence - 1 person

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  • AdrianCAdrianC Forumite
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    ChilliBob said:
    anselld said:
    AdrianC said:
    ChilliBob said:
    We felt surely this is against human rights go say it can only be one person?! 
    Which bit?
    https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/convention_eng.pdf
    Article 8 presumably.  
    .. and there is a fair point... what happens if the OP lets to a single tenant as required by the Authority and the tenant subsequently finds a partner who decides to move in?  The Authority would presumably require the OP to take steps to evict the T or face enforcement action or prosecution for breach of their License.
    Yep, section 8. Basically we just added this bit in when appealing on the off chance it would carry more weight. Its ultimately nonsensical as I like my space but I was comfy there! 
    ARTICLE 8 - Right to respect for private and family life
    1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
    2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others

    Notice the bit that says it's OK if it's to protect health and public safety?

    It certainly does not say a private landlord has a right to cram as many people in to a flat as possible... One person, a couple, a family with five kids and grandparents. Your argument would apply just the same - it's all family life.

    Remember, you're trying to interpret it in a way that would also go against statutory overcrowding regs, and we know they're perfectly compatible with the ECHR/HRA (the difference is only that the HRA allows UK courts to prosecute breaches, instead of having to go to the European Court of Human Rights - and, no, Brexit doesn't change anything because the European Convention and Court are nothing to do with the EU). Quite the opposite, in fact - public sector housing providers would be in breach of A8 if they allowed people to live in overcrowded accommodation.
    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/human_rights_at_home.pdf
    The human right to freedom from inhuman or degrading treatment (Article 3) would be relevant where a home in appalling condition is provided to an occupier who had had no choice but to take it. Short of that, something seriously wrong would need to occur before a social landlord’s failure to repair or maintain would lead to a breach of other human rights (for example, under Article 8).
    Example: A growing family, including young children, live in a cramped and overcrowded social housing property. By reason of lack of adequate heating and ventilation systems there is extensive condensation dampness causing illness. An intermittent fault in the water supply to the block of flats means that they are also often without hot water in the evenings. The parents decide that they need to send the children away to live with other relatives to safeguard their health and hygiene. This is likely to amount to a breach of the Article 8 right to respect for private and family life and/or an interference with the right to respect for the home. That is because it would be unlikely that this ‘treatment’ of the family could be objectively justified even if the housing provider had no obligation to deal with the situation under the tenancy agreement or housing legislation.

    Remember, ECHR and HRA only restrict what public authorities can do - not what individuals and businesses can do. National law restricts their activities. So you would be arguing that the local authority are breaching YOUR rights by preventing you from letting, not that they would be restricting the rights of tenants.

    So how big is this flat? One bed, lovely, meaningless - how many actual square metres?
  • ChilliBobChilliBob Forumite
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    Fair enough! You can see the angle we were going for in the hope it might kick the review into action, I knew it was dubious though!

    1 bed flat, bedroom is just over 9sqm, flat total size is 40 something sq m with open plan living area and kitchen and a balcony. Bathroom with all the usual, probably irrelevant but second floor of three story block 
  • dimbo61dimbo61 Forumite
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    With a HMO the HMO team can look at not only the size of the bedrooms but also the living space.
    If you have say a 6 bed HMO and 1 or 2 of the bedrooms are 9m2 they can take into account living spaces as "study areas"
    Your appeal should be based on the overall size of the flat.
    However there are some awful " bedsits " now being built inside old offices/shop/pubs which are so small they should never be rented to a couple/family.
  • AdrianCAdrianC Forumite
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    ChilliBob said:
    1 bed flat, bedroom is just over 9sqm, flat total size is 40 something sq m with open plan living area and kitchen and a balcony. Bathroom with all the usual, probably irrelevant but second floor of three story block 
    "40-something" is a big range. 25% more space at the top end of that than the bottom...

    46m2 is apparently the average UK 1-bed, but 50m2 is the minimum required under the "Nationally Described Space Standards" for a double-bed 1-bed, while 37m2 is the minimum for a single occupant. A double bedroom must be at least 11.5m2.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524531/160519_Nationally_Described_Space_Standard____Final_Web_version.pdf
  • ChilliBobChilliBob Forumite
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    Yep, I started asking on here then went a little scatter gun. My partner is so stressed about this I figured I may get more info. As you'll see by the username, not trying to hide it! 
  • theartfullodgertheartfullodger Forumite
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    Understood & agreed:

    Serious point (been a landlord since 2000) I'm pleased councils are enforcing the laws, even if that's tough on a few people like your partner, who has my sympathy.

    What training has she done in landlord/tenant law please??
  • ChilliBobChilliBob Forumite
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    AdrianC said:
    ChilliBob said:
    1 bed flat, bedroom is just over 9sqm, flat total size is 40 something sq m with open plan living area and kitchen and a balcony. Bathroom with all the usual, probably irrelevant but second floor of three story block 
    "40-something" is a big range. 25% more space at the top end of that than the bottom...

    46m2 is apparently the average UK 1-bed, but 50m2 is the minimum required under the "Nationally Described Space Standards" for a double-bed 1-bed, while 37m2 is the minimum for a single occupant. A double bedroom must be at least 11.5m2.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524531/160519_Nationally_Described_Space_Standard____Final_Web_version.pdf
    Thanks that's really helpful, quite surprising, would have thought the minimum would have been a bit lower. We do have the measurements but not to hand right now (in the car!) 
  • ChilliBobChilliBob Forumite
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    Understood & agreed:

    Serious point (been a landlord since 2000) I'm pleased councils are enforcing the laws, even if that's tough on a few people like your partner, who has my sympathy.

    What training has she done in landlord/tenant law please??
    In all honest nothing besides reading online and asking a friend who has done it for many years. She's been very lucky with her Tennants, tbh she wants to sell it as we want to put the cash towards our next house more (it's on the market!). The ESW1 stuff is causing grief there though (despite the owners confirmed it being under 18m)
  • anselldanselld Forumite
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    AdrianC said:
    ChilliBob said:
    anselld said:
    AdrianC said:
    ChilliBob said:
    We felt surely this is against human rights go say it can only be one person?! 
    Which bit?
    https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/convention_eng.pdf
    Article 8 presumably.  
    .. and there is a fair point... what happens if the OP lets to a single tenant as required by the Authority and the tenant subsequently finds a partner who decides to move in?  The Authority would presumably require the OP to take steps to evict the T or face enforcement action or prosecution for breach of their License.
    Yep, section 8. Basically we just added this bit in when appealing on the off chance it would carry more weight. Its ultimately nonsensical as I like my space but I was comfy there! 

    Remember, you're trying to interpret it in a way that would also go against statutory overcrowding regs, 
    It is extremely unlikely that two people would exceed the statutory overcrowding regs .. https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law
    .. since living rooms can be included in the room count.  So the Council are creating rules through licensing which, as the OP points out, will not apply if someone purchases the property for their own occupation.
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