PayPal pre-approved payments and 123-reg

Zanderman

cammywebster said:

Where did I explicitly give consent for further payments to be taken from my account?

Sigh...
When you placed the order.

cammywebster

Thanks - this is turning into a useful discussion having started off not so.
@jsmith9 - I actually followed through your suggestion last night to sign up for another domain with 123-reg - jsmith9.com - and I took it right through the process to the point of authorising the payment.
Consent appears to be given at the point of authorising the PayPal transaction.  It is not clear what that consent is (it's very ambiguous) so I'll give my translation of it here:
"Use PayPal for payments authorised to 123-reg Limited and agree to let 123-reg Limited charge your account for future payments in accordance with the PayPal User Agreement.  You can update your funding source or revoke this permission in settings"
This means IMO:
"You consent to let 123-reg take any amount of money from your account at any time"
If 123-reg and PayPal are acting in the best interests of their customers and consumers, it's hard to see where that is.  A direct debit mandate would clearly state the recurrence schedule and whether the amount was fixed or variable.  If 123-reg and PayPal are working in my best interests, I can't see any reason why this text would not clearly define what the payment amounts and dates are.
Next point - 51 weeks and not 1 year registration period.  That to me looks like an almost a 2% surcharge on my renewal.  The 123-reg T&Cs contradict both other sections of the T&Cs and on several occasions what they are advertising:
Section 5.4 - Term (should be 1 year)
"We will provide the Services for the period on the order confirmation from the date stipulated in either clause 5.2 or 5.3 above (such period being termed the 'initial period') and shall be automatically renewed, subject to cancellation or termination under the provisions of this agreement"
Section 7.2 - Renewal of Services
"...we may attempt to renew the services a reasonable time before expiration..."
Section 7.2.4
"Maintain your own reminders regarding when your services are set to expire"
So, in effect they will provide the service for 1 year, but reserve the right to renew at any time before the renewal date and they also say that you should maintain your own reminders of the renewal date although the purpose of this is not clear if they have a Schrodinger's renewals clause in their T&Cs."

My argument is therefore with 123-reg as, in my opinion, they have not provided the service as advertised for the 'initial period'.  In that case, how do I get my money back from 123-reg for early renewal?  I contact them and ask for it to be refunded.  If that route does not work out, what do I then do?  I contact the payment provider, in this case PayPal and ask them to recover the payment for me explaining what has happened.

This type of situation is exactly why the direct debit system was created.  There is little or no protection for consumers for these type of arrangements and they only serve the interests of the vendor and the payments processor.  This needs to change.  I completely understand why my elderly relatives don't want to purchase anything online or use digital banking services, because there is no protection offered to them by these arrangements.  The problem is, that purchasing online is fast becoming the only method or purchasing and the rate of that change has accelerated markedly under covid.

Zanderman

You may or may not have a case for arguing with 123-Reg about the timing of the renewal. I wish you well in getting your money back.

But all your other complaints are spurious. You didn't notice that you'd set up auto-renewal. You were unaware despite 'not living in a cave' that such things were possible with Paypal.  And anyway it would have happened with any payment system.

You bring up DDs and make the point that they have guarantees etc.  But 123-reg don't offer the option of DDs. It's debit card or Paypal.  This is normalilty for ordering online.  DDs are not an option for most online purchases.  Subscription services (which is what you signed up to) use Continuous Payment Authorities by default.

If you'd paid not with Paypal but by debit card you'd not have a DD but a CPA. You would have no record of that unless you'd noticed upfront as your bank account gives you no record of those..  And the payment would have been taken without notice, just like it was with Paypal. The comparison, in this case, should be with CPAs not DDs.  Talking about DDs ignores the reality.  DDs are not relevant to this - CPAs are the closest parallel.

CPAs can be annoying - easily forgotten and there's no record of them on your banking login. Which is why one needs to be wary of them.  Paypal recurring payments are actually much more easily managed - as you can see those on your paypal login and cancel them if needed.  Paypal recurring payments are, therefore, better than the alternative CPA system as you can easily manage them. 

That's how it is.  If you don't like it then always read what you sign up - in full - before you sign up.  This forum is littered with people complaining they didn't sign up for subscriptions from various outfits - but actually they did as they were simply careless and unobservant.  Amazon Prime is a regular one. Read what is you are ordering.

(and, btw, the paypal screen, when you pay via paypal for a recurring payment, points out to you that you are signing up for a recurring payment, so that was another place you missed the information).

jsmith9

It sounds to me like you think reg-123 are not making it obvious enough that you are signing up for an auto renewal product

obviously the first stage is to complain to them which you have done

after that the only place I can think of is trading Standards but I'm sure there are others on here with more knowledge than I have who can point you in the right direction as I'm sure there must be consumer regulations for online selling that require a company to be open about what the consumer is signing up to.

As I and others on here have pointed out your fight is not with PayPal who are simply processing your payment instructions

masonic

cammywebster said:

"We will provide the Services for the period on the order confirmation from the date stipulated i
My argument is therefore with 123-reg as, in my opinion, they have not provided the service as advertised for the 'initial period'.  In that case, how do I get my money back from 123-reg for early renewal?  I contact them and ask for it to be refunded.  If that route does not work out, what do I then do?  I contact the payment provider, in this case PayPal and ask them to recover the payment for me explaining what has happened.

This type of situation is exactly why the direct debit system was created.  There is little or no protection for consumers for these type of arrangements and they only serve the interests of the vendor and the payments processor.  This needs to change.  I completely understand why my elderly relatives don't want to purchase anything online or use digital banking services, because there is no protection offered to them by these arrangements.  The problem is, that purchasing online is fast becoming the only method or purchasing and the rate of that change has accelerated markedly under covid.n either clause 5.2 or 5.3 above (such period being termed the 'initial period') and shall be automatically renewed, subject to cancellation or termination under the provisions of this agreement"
Section 7.2 - Renewal of Services
"...we may attempt to renew the services a reasonable time before expiration..."
Section 7.2.4
"Maintain your own reminders regarding when your services are set to expire"
So, in effect they will provide the service for 1 year, but reserve the right to renew at any time before the renewal date and they also say that you should maintain your own reminders of the renewal date although the purpose of this is not clear if they have a Schrodinger's renewals clause in their T&Cs."

My argument is therefore with 123-reg as, in my opinion, they have not provided the service as advertised for the 'initial period'.  In that case, how do I get my money back from 123-reg for early renewal?  I contact them and ask for it to be refunded.  If that route does not work out, what do I then do?  I contact the payment provider, in this case PayPal and ask them to recover the payment for me explaining what has happened.

While they state the can attempt to renew the services a reasonable time before expiration, you seem to be assuming that the start date for your renewed service is the date the payment was taken, rather than the date your 'initial period' ends. Do you have evidence of this (for example, the new expiry is less than one year from the end of your initial 1 year period)?

If you took out the domain on, say, 10th December 2019, and they have processed a renewal that only takes you up to 2nd December 2021, then you definitely have grounds for complaint about the lost week, but most domain providers just add the time on to your existing expiry date when you renew - otherwise nobody would ever renew until the last minute.

You could potentially pursue a Paypal significantly not as described dispute if you've paid for another year and got 51 weeks added to your expiry date.

cammywebster said:

This type of situation is exactly why the direct debit system was created.  There is little or no protection for consumers for these type of arrangements and they only serve the interests of the vendor and the payments processor.  This needs to change.  I completely understand why my elderly relatives don't want to purchase anything online or use digital banking services, because there is no protection offered to them by these arrangements.  The problem is, that purchasing online is fast becoming the only method or purchasing and the rate of that change has accelerated markedly under covid.

Direct Debits have more protection than credit/debit card Continuous Payment Authorities, and Paypal's own recurring payment facility. However, in this case if you were to put in a claim under the Direct Debit Guarantee, 123-reg could dispute it, and being refunded through that system does not mean you no longer owe the money (so could result in 123-reg taking further action to recover it, such as engaging a debt collection firm). The DD guarantee is there for when a payment is taken in error or without there being an agreement to bill on an ongoing basis.

I would suggest you speak nicely to 123-reg. It is not usually the intention of a business to trap customers into renewing against their will, so if you explain that you did not realise the autorenewal would happen, or happen when it did, they might let you off and refund it if you no longer want the domain or are in the process of transferring to another provider. I don't know whether or not you received any reminders that the domain was coming up for renewal, or if any of those reminders mentioned that payment would be taken automatically in due course, but it could be worthwhile mentioning when you call. Presumably the purpose of Section 7.2.4 is that they don't send reminders, so it is up to you to remember that the domain is coming up for renewal and if you want to avoid a renewal payment being taken you need to take action well in advance of the actual expiry date (given payment will be taken "a reasonable time before expiration").

If you wanted to take a hard line with 123-reg, then your rights would come under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and I suppose you would be arguing that the autorenewal constituted "A term which has the object or effect of irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which the consumer has had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract." I don't personally think you have a very strong case, given Section 7.2 of the agreement, and the fact that Paypal would have indicated a recurring payment was being set up when you authorised the initial sum to be taken.

Suggest in future you set up a reminder a month or two in advance of a service that may require action on your part and/or a notice period to cancel. That's what I do with insurance/broadband/utilities etc.

born_again

cammywebster 
Next time you make such a purchase via PayPal.
I suggest you check the area/instructions that I linked to in my previous post.
If it shows in there, you simply click cancel & it can no longer be used by the retailer.