Difficulty certifiing document copies - difference between copy and 'original'

Bloblik

My friend is trying to prove previous address history going back 3 years.
The mortgage co. require bank statements as one of the options to prove such.
Current MBNA statements (A Lloyds Group Company) in this persons possession are printed digitally (ie not lithographically) in full colour, on 90/100gsm laser printer paper. (I have 30 years experience in the print business, and understand the differences).
MNBA have kindly sent through historical statements from 2-3 years back, but these are black and white digital copies on 70/80gsm laser printer paper, a covering letter was sent in the envelope which is in colour and on 90/100gsm though.
A local Solicitor will only certify the Colour digital copies, and not the black and white, which were presented in the original envelope with the covering letter.
All the documents are printed digitally, same as say a Green and Black logo'd Lloyds statement, or blue logo'd Bank of Scotland Statement (also a Lloyds Group Company), each page is personalised as it goes through the digital press - with the logo printed at the same time.
I suspect the black and white copies are not colour, because archived data stored by MBNA is black and white to save on disk space or printer toner - or that the only printer connected to that particular print facilitie network is a high volume black and white output unit , and so MBNA state that black and white is all they can produce.
An impasse has been reached, the Solicitor will only certify the historical statements if they are in colour, in fact he has certified the covering letter and recent statements, which is colour,does the Solicitor probably think the colour copies are still produced Litho ?, ie the logo's are printed separately on a big press, then the black and white details  individual details (ie name address, date, transactions etc) are added later - which is no longer the case in the majority of cases.
So in fact he is certifying documents in colour on 90/100gsm paper - documents that any colour printer could produce, he will just not certify black and white 70/80gsm  ... any thoughts on how one might get past this bizarre situation and get the 'Original', as sent in the post from MBNA, black and white statements certified. ???

K_S

@Bloblik If you don't mind, could you explain who has requested for these certified documents and for what purpose? The broker, lender or someone else?

davidmcn

Is the solicitor actually doubting that the statements came from the bank? They're "originals" if they've been produced by the bank, no matter what method the bank uses to print them, or how many times the bank has issued them, or even if the bank scribbles on the back of an envelope.

Why not just send the originals to the lender (or whoever is asking for them)?

dunstonh

A local Solicitor will only certify the Colour digital copies, and not the black and white, which were presented in the original envelope with the covering letter.

This is likely because they are already copies of an original rather than the original being copied.   So, they cannot certify that they are true copies of the original as they have not had the original in their sight.    If the copy had been of a quality that it looked like an original, it would have been fine.   Plenty of times we have printed pdfs of statements on our office laser printer and they have been accepted without problem.  So, I wouldn't get too hooked into the printing method.  Its whether they look like they are already a copy that is the problem.  

any thoughts on how one might get past this bizarre situation and get the 'Original', as sent in the post from MBNA, black and white statements certified. ???

If MBNA do not retain the ability to print historical statements in an original form then you are not going to be able to get them.

MBNA tend to be a credit facility in the UK rather than a banking facility.  If it was retail banking, you would ask the bank to certify them.  You could try that with MBNA but I don't know if they would.

What about other options such as council tax bill (downloadable as pdfs from most authorities if originals no longer held).  Same with utility bills?

ACG

Ask another solicitor? 

Mickey666

This raises an interesting issue about what constitutes an original document.  What about an ‘original’ statement from one of the many online banks that never send out paper statements and only provide pdf files?  The same is true of many utility bills these days.  The trend towards online and electronic documents is clear so people, solicitors and institutions better get used to it.

dunstonh

This raises an interesting issue about what constitutes an original document.  What about an ‘original’ statement from one of the many online banks that never send out paper statements and only provide pdf files? 

If printed on a laser printer, it would almost always be accepted without question as being an original.   If printed on someone's £50 home printer on poor quality paper and ink, then it would likely not be.  We just ask clients to give us the pdfs and we print them if necessary.

MWT

Are MBNA statements going to be acceptable anyway, credit card statements are not usually accepted as proof of address?

[Deleted User]

I would class anything sent or printed directly from the issuing company as an original.  What quality paper that is on ils irrelevant.  An atm receipt is an original document 

Mickey666

dunstonh said:

This raises an interesting issue about what constitutes an original document.  What about an ‘original’ statement from one of the many online banks that never send out paper statements and only provide pdf files? 

If printed on a laser printer, it would almost always be accepted without question as being an original.   If printed on someone's £50 home printer on poor quality paper and ink, then it would likely not be.  We just ask clients to give us the pdfs and we print them if necessary.

But plenty of people have a laser printer at home, so being laser-printed is no proof of originality.
Also, pdfs are easily modified so that’s no real proof of originality.
I suppose the rigour of proof depends on the importance of the matter at hand.

MWT

The industry as a whole is going to have to get to grips with this issue soon.

I've just been through the process of providing proof of address for myself and my wife, we have no utility bills that are acceptable as we receive no paper copies of any of them.

Our Council Tax bill worked for me, but my wife's name is not shown on it.

Our bank accounts are all paperless, and the one credit card that isn't paperless in her name was no help as credit cards are not an acceptable proof...

In the end the only remaining option was her driving licence, which of course is only valid if you didn't need to use it for proof of identity...