EWS1 rating changed

nightingale101

Hi everyone,
I am in the midst of purchasing a flat. Before I made the offer the EWS1 certificate had A1 rating on it and I offered it based on that however I now have the updated certificate which has gone down to B1. The A1 was issued earlier this year and the updated one was done in November of this year. Seems a bit dodgy to me that it would go from A1 to B1 and makes me think this could change to B2 in the future. What are your thoughts? I am thinking to lower the offer because I went in knowing it was A1.

theartfullodger

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

nightingale101

theartfullodger said:

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

So my broker spoke to the bank and they said they do consider B1. As far as I know banks will accept A1 or B1. But it is still under the discretion of the surveyor so as long as surveyor is happy then bank will lend. How much do you think is significantly lower? I was going to go with 20% down from my initial offer. 

theartfullodger

Dunno ......

annetheman

nightingale101 said:

theartfullodger said:

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

So my broker spoke to the bank and they said they do consider B1. As far as I know banks will accept A1 or B1. But it is still under the discretion of the surveyor so as long as surveyor is happy then bank will lend. How much do you think is significantly lower? I was going to go with 20% down from my initial offer. 

A1, A2 or B1 are all in safe territory - though you are right to question the effect this could have on your mortgage valuation.

If you'd already been offered the mortgage I would've said go with the price initially negotiated - but since you haven't yet, I'd definitely see if you can wrangle down a bit. 

My logic would be to see why the rating was lowered - try to get a copy of the new EWS1. If e.g. it is because balconies have combustible timber floorboards, which makes it a B rating, but they would not promote the spread of fire, so an B1 rather than B2, this might mean in future the management might change the floorboards at a cost of around £5,000 estimate (check around for industry costs for this, you can use as back up in your negotiations) per flat. 

So I would reduce the offer amount by £5,000. 

If it's something bigger such as combustible insulation but installed in a system that would not promote the spread of fire, this could - if the management decide they do want to change it for whatever reason, including statutory/legal requirements - this could cost you anywhere between £20-100,000 per flat, depending on the building. 

You don't want to find yourself in a position where you're kicking yourself for agreeing £10,000 whilst staring at a £80,000 bill in a worthless property.

The govt have moved the goalposts before, they could again - so finding out what is behind that B1 really is key to deciding how much less to pay. It might not save you from the huge bill if it does come, but you'll feel less hard done by, I think, if you are going to go for this place.

nightingale101

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

theartfullodger said:

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

So my broker spoke to the bank and they said they do consider B1. As far as I know banks will accept A1 or B1. But it is still under the discretion of the surveyor so as long as surveyor is happy then bank will lend. How much do you think is significantly lower? I was going to go with 20% down from my initial offer. 

A1, A2 or B1 are all in safe territory - though you are right to question the effect this could have on your mortgage valuation.

If you'd already been offered the mortgage I would've said go with the price initially negotiated - but since you haven't yet, I'd definitely see if you can wrangle down a bit. 

My logic would be to see why the rating was lowered - try to get a copy of the new EWS1. If e.g. it is because balconies have combustible timber floorboards, which makes it a B rating, but they would not promote the spread of fire, so an B1 rather than B2, this might mean in future the management might change the floorboards at a cost of around £5,000 estimate (check around for industry costs for this, you can use as back up in your negotiations) per flat. 

So I would reduce the offer amount by £5,000. 

If it's something bigger such as combustible insulation but installed in a system that would not promote the spread of fire, this could - if the management decide they do want to change it for whatever reason, including statutory/legal requirements - this could cost you anywhere between £20-100,000 per flat, depending on the building. 

You don't want to find yourself in a position where you're kicking yourself for agreeing £10,000 whilst staring at a £80,000 bill in a worthless property.

The govt have moved the goalposts before, they could again - so finding out what is behind that B1 really is key to deciding how much less to pay. It might not save you from the huge bill if it does come, but you'll feel less hard done by, I think, if you are going to go for this place.

 Thank you so much for your thorough input! Indeed I have called up RICS today and they said that this may be due to the gov guidelines changing which could be why it went to B1. But you are right I need to find out what exactly is that made it suddenly change and use that as my reasoning. I tried calling up the surveying company today but didn't get through and could only send a message instead. I have copies of both the EWS1 certificates but they don't contain any detailed information as to why the options have been given, a separate report can be requested by the client organisation only it seems. I am afraid I might not be able to get this information which I feel like as a buyer I should have access to. 

annetheman

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

theartfullodger said:

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

So my broker spoke to the bank and they said they do consider B1. As far as I know banks will accept A1 or B1. But it is still under the discretion of the surveyor so as long as surveyor is happy then bank will lend. How much do you think is significantly lower? I was going to go with 20% down from my initial offer. 

A1, A2 or B1 are all in safe territory - though you are right to question the effect this could have on your mortgage valuation.

If you'd already been offered the mortgage I would've said go with the price initially negotiated - but since you haven't yet, I'd definitely see if you can wrangle down a bit. 

My logic would be to see why the rating was lowered - try to get a copy of the new EWS1. If e.g. it is because balconies have combustible timber floorboards, which makes it a B rating, but they would not promote the spread of fire, so an B1 rather than B2, this might mean in future the management might change the floorboards at a cost of around £5,000 estimate (check around for industry costs for this, you can use as back up in your negotiations) per flat. 

So I would reduce the offer amount by £5,000. 

If it's something bigger such as combustible insulation but installed in a system that would not promote the spread of fire, this could - if the management decide they do want to change it for whatever reason, including statutory/legal requirements - this could cost you anywhere between £20-100,000 per flat, depending on the building. 

You don't want to find yourself in a position where you're kicking yourself for agreeing £10,000 whilst staring at a £80,000 bill in a worthless property.

The govt have moved the goalposts before, they could again - so finding out what is behind that B1 really is key to deciding how much less to pay. It might not save you from the huge bill if it does come, but you'll feel less hard done by, I think, if you are going to go for this place.

 Thank you so much for your thorough input! Indeed I have called up RICS today and they said that this may be due to the gov guidelines changing which could be why it went to B1. But you are right I need to find out what exactly is that made it suddenly change and use that as my reasoning. I tried calling up the surveying company today but didn't get through and could only send a message instead. I have copies of both the EWS1 certificates but they don't contain any detailed information as to why the options have been given, a separate report can be requested by the client organisation only it seems. I am afraid I might not be able to get this information which I feel like as a buyer I should have access to. 

Ah... One of the Dame Hackitt recommendations was to give residents access to all fire safety documents - it is really quite odd to me that freeholders/managing agents hide these away from even the people who live there. Maybe it has something to do with insurance/liability... Anyway.

Do what you can to get it, it could change everything for you.

The Fire Industry also recently released the first "official" EWS1 portal where full reports can be seen but not much on there at all at the moment so probably no help to you right now: https://buildingsafetyportal.co.uk/

Issue being it is not mandatory for surveyors to upload the forms here and they need to pay to do so and to be accredited.

Can't see it taking off without some govt legislation making it mandatory.

Keep an eye on Fire Safety Bill Amendment 13 (very good, could protect leaseholders from all historic fire safety costs) and the Building Safety Bill (currently very bad, will force leaseholders to pay to fix any building safety defect within 28 days regardless of amount and overriding any lease clauses protecting them from costs).

I keep this thread updated with relevant news if you see it pop up now and then:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6217523/govt-makes-haphazard-attempt-to-alleviate-some-of-the-blockages-in-flat-sales-mess-caused-by-ews1#latest

Good luck with your purchase

nightingale101

Damn if only there were full reports on that website! Yeah agreed unless government makes this mandatory, no one will want to do this. Sigh. I have just called up the management company of the building but they said I need to contact the building safety department and they don't take calls only emails with the auto reply saying 7 working days I have the name of the technical director that the cover letter for EWS1 was addressed to, but of course there are no contact details available anywhere. 
Thanks for posting that thread! Super useful  

nightingale101

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

annetheman said:

nightingale101 said:

theartfullodger said:

Offer significantly lower or buy somewhere else.

Big problem could be mortgage

So my broker spoke to the bank and they said they do consider B1. As far as I know banks will accept A1 or B1. But it is still under the discretion of the surveyor so as long as surveyor is happy then bank will lend. How much do you think is significantly lower? I was going to go with 20% down from my initial offer. 

A1, A2 or B1 are all in safe territory - though you are right to question the effect this could have on your mortgage valuation.

If you'd already been offered the mortgage I would've said go with the price initially negotiated - but since you haven't yet, I'd definitely see if you can wrangle down a bit. 

My logic would be to see why the rating was lowered - try to get a copy of the new EWS1. If e.g. it is because balconies have combustible timber floorboards, which makes it a B rating, but they would not promote the spread of fire, so an B1 rather than B2, this might mean in future the management might change the floorboards at a cost of around £5,000 estimate (check around for industry costs for this, you can use as back up in your negotiations) per flat. 

So I would reduce the offer amount by £5,000. 

If it's something bigger such as combustible insulation but installed in a system that would not promote the spread of fire, this could - if the management decide they do want to change it for whatever reason, including statutory/legal requirements - this could cost you anywhere between £20-100,000 per flat, depending on the building. 

You don't want to find yourself in a position where you're kicking yourself for agreeing £10,000 whilst staring at a £80,000 bill in a worthless property.

The govt have moved the goalposts before, they could again - so finding out what is behind that B1 really is key to deciding how much less to pay. It might not save you from the huge bill if it does come, but you'll feel less hard done by, I think, if you are going to go for this place.

 Thank you so much for your thorough input! Indeed I have called up RICS today and they said that this may be due to the gov guidelines changing which could be why it went to B1. But you are right I need to find out what exactly is that made it suddenly change and use that as my reasoning. I tried calling up the surveying company today but didn't get through and could only send a message instead. I have copies of both the EWS1 certificates but they don't contain any detailed information as to why the options have been given, a separate report can be requested by the client organisation only it seems. I am afraid I might not be able to get this information which I feel like as a buyer I should have access to. 

Ah... One of the Dame Hackitt recommendations was to give residents access to all fire safety documents - it is really quite odd to me that freeholders/managing agents hide these away from even the people who live there. Maybe it has something to do with insurance/liability... Anyway.

Do what you can to get it, it could change everything for you.

The Fire Industry also recently released the first "official" EWS1 portal where full reports can be seen but not much on there at all at the moment so probably no help to you right now: 

Issue being it is not mandatory for surveyors to upload the forms here and they need to pay to do so and to be accredited.

Can't see it taking off without some govt legislation making it mandatory.

Keep an eye on Fire Safety Bill Amendment 13 (very good, could protect leaseholders from all historic fire safety costs) and the Building Safety Bill (currently very bad, will force leaseholders to pay to fix any building safety defect within 28 days regardless of amount and overriding any lease clauses protecting them from costs).

I keep this thread updated with relevant news if you see it pop up now and then:



Good luck with your purchase

Was suppose to quote you and then missed clicking it 😅
Damn if only there were full reports on that website already! Yeah agreed unless the gov makes this mandatory, no one will want to do this. Sigh. I have called up the management company of the building but they said I need to contact the safety department and they don't take calls and only emails with the auto reply saying 7 working days to get a response. Also managed to find the technical director's email so have contacted them as well but yeah pretty much just a waiting game now and I might not even be able to get access to this information.

Thanks for posting that thread! Super useful )