Party Wall Act - Extortionate fees and ruins relations with neighbours

GordonBurnett

I wouldn't take it to heart. People get very concerned about this sort of thing and their home is usually their biggest asset. They may trust you, but your builders were an unknown quantity..

TSaville

Hello all. I started the petition because of an awful personal experience. There was recently a court decision which made very clear that a building owner should not be forced to pay for two sets of surveyors. Unfortunately the decision is being widely ignored by party wall surveyors, for the obvious reason it limits their ability to extract unnecessary fees from householders. 

To quote the relevant passage: 
"The Appellant was prepared to accept the Respondents’ choice of surveyor to act as Agreed Surveyor. The Respondents could be assured that their interests would be looked after by Mr Godwin acting as agreed surveyor as adjoining owner appointed surveyor. There can be no obvious reason for the Respondents to insist that Mr Godwin acted only as their party wall surveyor with the inevitable consequence that the Appellant had to incur the cost of a second party wall surveyor, and they offered none. The Respondents felt entitled to insist on the “two-surveyor route” but not, in my judgment, on the basis that the Appellant had to pay all the additional costs."

What makes the situation worse is the legislative authority vested in appointed surveyors, which means their decisions can only be challenged via the county courts; a prohibitively expensive route for all small, and simple works that the majority of householders should be entitled to carry out. The result is that surveyors can really do as they wish, with very little chance of recourse. This is true even if they are RICS charter holders; RICS simply do not get involved in party wall issues. 

I cannot think of a single profession where members can act with such impunity. It needs to change.

I know my petition has a very small amount of signatures, put please support it. At the very least it will help me to force RICS to provide some guidance on this issue, and save others from such unnecessary expense as we have been subjected to. 

mug2007

TSaville said:

Hello all. I started the petition because of an awful personal experience. There was recently a court decision which made very clear that a building owner should not be forced to pay for two sets of surveyors. Unfortunately the decision is being widely ignored by party wall surveyors, for the obvious reason it limits their ability to extract unnecessary fees from householders. 

To quote the relevant passage: 
"The Appellant was prepared to accept the Respondents’ choice of surveyor to act as Agreed Surveyor. The Respondents could be assured that their interests would be looked after by Mr Godwin acting as agreed surveyor as adjoining owner appointed surveyor. There can be no obvious reason for the Respondents to insist that Mr Godwin acted only as their party wall surveyor with the inevitable consequence that the Appellant had to incur the cost of a second party wall surveyor, and they offered none. The Respondents felt entitled to insist on the “two-surveyor route” but not, in my judgment, on the basis that the Appellant had to pay all the additional costs."

What makes the situation worse is the legislative authority vested in appointed surveyors, which means their decisions can only be challenged via the county courts; a prohibitively expensive route for all small, and simple works that the majority of householders should be entitled to carry out. The result is that surveyors can really do as they wish, with very little chance of recourse. This is true even if they are RICS charter holders; RICS simply do not get involved in party wall issues. 

I cannot think of a single profession where members can act with such impunity. It needs to change.

I know my petition has a very small amount of signatures, put please support it. At the very least it will help me to force RICS to provide some guidance on this issue, and save others from such unnecessary expense as we have been subjected to. 

Thank you for creating the petition and raising awareness.  I would have happily used the adjoining owner choice of surveyor as the agreed surveyor.  This would have saved us an estimated £2400 and left us with a more palatable £1950 fee for both adjoining owners awards.   It isn't fair on the building owner to pay twice when one impartial chartered party wall surveyor can carry out all the work.
  
Furthermore it is the surveyors themselves who are recommending adjoining owners dissent contrary to the government guidelines which advises trying to reach an agreement with the neighbours.  

If every building owner served the notices then there would be a lot more interest out there in reforming this act.  Building owners that are doing the right thing and serving the notice are getting stung and this is not right.

I wrote to my MP last year about this issue.  

TSaville

Very kind of you to say so @mug2007 - It would be great if you could send the link around to friends, family, MPs, whoever! If you have any other ideas of how to raise awareness/gain signatures I'm also open to suggestions. 

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post links on this forum quite yet as there seems to be a block for new members. 
 

Rosa_Damascena

mug2007 said:

Thank you all for your contributions. I hope some people about to embark on the party wall act find it useful.  On a positive note, we have been overall pretty cost efficient, moving out ourselves without a removal company, using every square inch of our self store space, moving into the parents during the works rather than renting somewhere, doing some demolition ourselves and finishing wc/ensuites ourselves.  Good luck to everyone, hoping you have a better party wall experience than us!

Thanks @mug2007. I've read the thread and am dreading what lies ahead for me this year

Roughly how much should a PWA cost?

mug2007

Cost breakdown of £4300 in party wall surveyor fees for gaining 2 neighbours agreement when both dissented choosing different surveyor:
£500 serve notices and liaison
£600 party wall awards +  £1000 record of condition 
£2200 adjoining owners surveyor fees
If your neighbour objected to your planning then they are more likely to dissent and choose their own surveyor

My tips:
1) Speak to your neighbours about your plans and upcoming notice
2) Ask your builder to explain to the neighbours exactly what they are going to do and explain any risks and their likelihood. This is not always possible because the party wall agreement takes so long you often need to kick that off before appointing your builder. Ours took 11 weeks from appointment to award agreed.
3) Let the neighbours know the cost of their decision to you, the cost of dissent and choosing their own surveyor v agreed surveyor
4) Before appointing your surveyor check if the surveyor will recommend your neighbour dissents
5) Ask your neighbour if they wish to choose the surveyor (in the county court in central London (Amir-Siddique v Kowaliw May 2018) a judge stated that it was unreasonable for the adjoining owner to insist on the two-surveyor route as the building owner wished to minimise costs).

Reasons for a neighbour to consent:
- Neighbour is considerate enough to serve the notice
- Act already covers causing unnecessary inconvenience and making good any damage caused by the works 
- Retain a good relationship with your neighbours (likely to be more considerate and keep you informed regarding the build)
- If your planning to carry out extension yourself the neighbour is likely to reciprocate
- if you have any concerns these can often be agreed in writing with your neighbour without the need to dissent e.g. agree a record of condition by chartered party wall surveyor paid for by the building owner
- save your neighbour (building owner) thousands of pounds in party wall surveyor fees
- the award is limited to the party wall works (e.g. 2 days of a 10 month build, so things like restricting noisy hours of work are pointless) 
- the works are simple and issues are unlikely (Standard single storey extension to detached house v terraced having basement built)
- if you dissent it can delay the project start date which can cause projects to hit bad weather and the duration to extend 

Best source of information: 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523010/Party_Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf

grumbler

TSaville said:

I know my petition has a very small amount of signatures, put please support it. At the very least it will help me to force RICS to provide some guidance on this issue, and save others from such unnecessary expense as we have been subjected to.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/549730

mug2007

You'll also find out through this process that the local party wall surveyors know each other and they help line each others pockets as well as their own by persuading adjoining owners to dissent.

Rosa_Damascena

Brilliant post @mug2007, thank you!

The bit I wasn't too keen on was the £4,300. It really is a license to print money 

mug2007

Thank you.  It seems like daylight robbery to me. My MP has sent my concerns onto the minister for housing and I would urge others to write to their MP as well.  I do not want to see other people lose a couple of thousand £s like I have and that is why I have created this post to raise awareness.  Party wall surveyors are taking advantage at the expense of building owners, one website I saw sums it up pretty well, they are having a banquet out of a picnic.