gross misconduct - need advice for a friend.

JamoLew

The "friend" needs to come on here so they can directly answer questions and give more info/context etc imo

Posting for a "friend" runs the risk of important information/facts not being disclosed and advised upon

KatrinaWaves

John_ said:

KatrinaWaves said:

steampowered said:

Beepeear said:

My friend works in a food store, they told me that before, everyone used to take products to have on their break and then they would usually pay for it at the end of the day, or if forgetting to do so, pay the next possible opportunity, usually the next day. 

Sorry, but I don't believe that your friend was going to pay for these items. I doubt the employer believes him either.

I doubt many of these items that people "forget" to pay for - get paid for the following day !!!!

It sounds like a final warning is the best outcome that can be hoped for. A dismissal is possible. Though it sounds unlikely that the police would be involved.

They’ve already admitted they did forget on several occasions. They can’t blame confusion over the new policy for that. 

That doesn’t really help their case. If I’d forgotten once I’d pay in advance in future to stop it happening again. He can’t claim it’s accidental if he’s made the same “mistake” more than once.

In my opinion they have no case at all. They stole, end of. 

AskAsk

KatrinaWaves said:

John_ said:

KatrinaWaves said:

steampowered said:

Beepeear said:

My friend works in a food store, they told me that before, everyone used to take products to have on their break and then they would usually pay for it at the end of the day, or if forgetting to do so, pay the next possible opportunity, usually the next day. 

Sorry, but I don't believe that your friend was going to pay for these items. I doubt the employer believes him either.

I doubt many of these items that people "forget" to pay for - get paid for the following day !!!!

It sounds like a final warning is the best outcome that can be hoped for. A dismissal is possible. Though it sounds unlikely that the police would be involved.

They’ve already admitted they did forget on several occasions. They can’t blame confusion over the new policy for that. 

That doesn’t really help their case. If I’d forgotten once I’d pay in advance in future to stop it happening again. He can’t claim it’s accidental if he’s made the same “mistake” more than once.

In my opinion they have no case at all. They stole, end of. 

yes, i would agree.  there is no mitigating circumstance at all, which was why my first response to this thread is that i do not have any advice as there isn't any available that could be offered by anyone that can hold any water.

it all depends on how the employer view the theft and whether they can overlook it.  however, reading the OP's disclosure, i do not think the employer will treat his friend in a lenient way.

krusty101

Beepeear said:

Savvy_Sue said:

MovingForwards said:

Beepeear said:

AskAsk said:

no advice as he has been caught.  whether he intended to steal or not is up for grabs.  he can only hope for the best.

what would you say is the worst case scenario?

Gets fired.

Gets fired for gross misconduct, escorted out immediately with no notice and no hope of a reference which doesn't mention that. At the very worst, a police report but I feel that's unlikely (unless it's really serious amounts of food). 

Slightly less worst case is fired, but with some pay in lieu of notice, or with some notice - which they MIGHT do if they are desperate for staff. That is possible even if it's for Gross Misconduct (rare). 

Probably best case is Final Written Warning, and he needs to be on his very best behaviour for a long time. If he leaves, it may be mentioned in a reference. 

How long has he been there? If under two years, they can dismiss him very easily. 

As already said, apologise profusely, "I'll never do it again", don't go OTT on "it was because it used to be allowed" because forgetting to pay for it afterwards - ever - is an excellent reason for not allowing that - ever. 

He has been there around 4/5 years now I believe, his main concern other than being fired is the gap he will have in his CV if the company has to disclose the GM on any future references.

They’re more likely to leave reason for leaving off a reference. It doesn’t have to be included. Although a new employer might make their own mind up what the gap means. He should ask what would be on a reference. Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

RichardD1970

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

krusty101

RichardD1970 said:

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

I’ve never seen that and would never put that. I’m not in the business of stopping someone get another job (unless they’d abused and were going into another care role for example) - strange organisation that does that. Better just to leave it blank. 

KatrinaWaves

krusty101 said:

RichardD1970 said:

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

I’ve never seen that and would never put that. I’m not in the business of stopping someone get another job (unless they’d abused and were going into another care role for example) - strange organisation that does that. Better just to leave it blank. 

Oh well if you’ve never done it or seen it then it must never happen. 

The care home example is pointless. You wouldnt have a choice in that situation. There will be far more things stopping an abuser getting a care role than a reference. Legal disclosures. Legal prosecutions. 

krusty101

KatrinaWaves said:

krusty101 said:

RichardD1970 said:

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

I’ve never seen that and would never put that. I’m not in the business of stopping someone get another job (unless they’d abused and were going into another care role for example) - strange organisation that does that. Better just to leave it blank. 

Oh well if you’ve never done it or seen it then it must never happen. 

The care home example is pointless. You wouldnt have a choice in that situation. There will be far more things stopping an abuser getting a care role than a reference. Legal disclosures. Legal prosecutions. 

You seem nice Katrina. Just offering my opinion. Wish I hadn’t bothered. If I could do a finger emoji I would. 

KatrinaWaves

krusty101 said:

KatrinaWaves said:

krusty101 said:

RichardD1970 said:

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

I’ve never seen that and would never put that. I’m not in the business of stopping someone get another job (unless they’d abused and were going into another care role for example) - strange organisation that does that. Better just to leave it blank. 

Oh well if you’ve never done it or seen it then it must never happen. 

The care home example is pointless. You wouldnt have a choice in that situation. There will be far more things stopping an abuser getting a care role than a reference. Legal disclosures. Legal prosecutions. 

You seem nice Katrina. Just offering my opinion. Wish I hadn’t bothered. If I could do a finger emoji I would. 

Anecdotes aren’t really helpful on advice forums, especially when acting like something won’t happen because you personally have not seen it or done it. I could say ‘I always used to steal from my employers and I never got sacked’ but it’s not helpful. It doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t sack someone else because I personally did not get sacked.

You say you’re not trying to stop someone getting a job as if giving a factual reference is somehow a negative thing to do, and that you would only do it in a situation when you literally would not have a choice as if that’s somehow noble... 

Plenty of companies would give the reference you stated you would never and have never. Plenty would also follow up with an off the record phone call as well. 

John_

krusty101 said:

RichardD1970 said:

krusty101 said:

Has he considered resigning before any disciplinary?

Even if he did the reference could still say "resigned whilst suspended/under investigation".

I’ve never seen that and would never put that. I’m not in the business of stopping someone get another job (unless they’d abused and were going into another care role for example) - strange organisation that does that. Better just to leave it blank. 

No, it’s better to be honest, and state the truth.

i know that some on here seem to live in a murky world whereby whatever you can get away with is seen as all good, but that’s not normal.