Change of flight number and departure airport. No refund.

mattg4321

Hi all

Booked flights to Jamaica through netflights pre Covid, travelling next month with virgin Atlantic from Gatwick. 

As we all know Virgin are no longer operating out of Gatwick. They are operating the same flight, but from Heathrow and with a different flight number to that I booked. 

A change of flight number or airport is surely grounds for a refund as it’s not the flight I booked. Netflights are claiming the flight is ‘going ahead as scheduled’ though. 

Can anyone point me in the direction of the relevant laws please?

silvercar

My understanding was that a change of flight number was grounds for a refund. A change of airport within a conurbation is not. LGW and LHR would both count as London airports.
Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 is what you want.

epm-84

When you say 'same flight from Heathrow' do you mean same departure time and arrival time?

Are they offering a complimentary transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow?

If the answers are yes and yes then I'm not sure it qualifies under EU reg 261.

I'm guessing the reason you want to cancel is really because there's currently no travel corridor for Jamaica, rather than not wanting to fly from Heathrow.

mattg4321

I don’t want to travel from Heathrow at any time to be honest. It’s not convenient for me, but the reason for not wanting to travel isn’t really relevant. 

Change of airport seems like a grey area from my research. Change of flight number seems like grounds for a refund. Is that in the regulation quoted above?

cheers all for help

epm-84

mattg4321 said:

Change of airport seems like a grey area from my research. Change of flight number seems like grounds for a refund. Is that in the regulation quoted above?

No change of flight number is not mentioned, you ideally need correspondence which uses the word 'cancellation' or the term 're-routing.'  The legislation talks about 'point of departure' not a specific airport.  There may be a good reason for that, for years the plan has been to open a new airport in Berlin which replaces both of the existing ones and this year that has finally happened, so they probably didn't want the legislation to be worded in a way that people who booked flights to/from Berlin Schönefeld could claim refunds because they are now flying from Berlin Brandenburg (next door to the old Schönefeld airport.)

mattg4321

They haven’t even officially told me about any change yet. I’ve heard nothing from them since February, other than a recent email saying I can’t have a refund as the flight is ‘going ahead as scheduled’ 

So if I didn’t read the news I’d still be expecting Gatwick. Even though virgin announced it months ago and its on virgins website. 

epm-84

mattg4321 said:

I don’t want to travel from Heathrow at any time to be honest. It’s not convenient for me, but the reason for not wanting to travel isn’t really relevant. 

The reality is if you want to go to Jamaica in the future you might have to fly from Heathrow, or an direct flight from Gatwick via another airport that's similar in size to Heathrow.

Both the agent and airline may suspect the reason you want to cancel now is due to the 14 day quarantine requirement still being in place, so given it's unlikely to be the case that you can just say "Refund please" and you'll get one, you might need to prepare a written response citing why the alternative (to what you originally booked) is not suitable, especially if EU 261 doesn't cover it and you have to argue you paid for a product or service which the retailer cannot deliver, under normal consumer laws.

Voyager2002

I suggest you contact Virgin directly; enquire about the original flight quoting the flight number and ask whether it has been cancelled. If they confirm this then you will have evidence that EU261 applies.

joncombe

It's worth having a look here.
https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Before-you-fly/Making-a-booking/Tickets,-fares-and-schedule-changes/
See the question "What changes can an airline make to my flight", I have quoted the answer below.

[quote]
Where an airline has made a change to your flight (the flight time for example) it is known as a schedule change. This is not the same as cancelling flights. Schedule changes should always be notified to passengers at least 14 days in advance, and the change should only be to the time or the date and not the flight number.
[/quote]

So a change of time (and even) airport is strictly considered an amendment but a change of flight no isn't. Since that has happened the original flight has clearly been cancelled and that does trigger the right to a refund. How easy it will be to get it, remains to be seen however.

CKhalvashi

silvercar said:

My understanding was that a change of flight number was grounds for a refund. A change of airport within a conurbation is not. LGW and LHR would both count as London airports.
Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 is what you want.

I'm sure a change of flight number on its own isn't, especially as one airline has renumbered a number of flights operated by one base to fit together, most of which were either operated in a 'W' pattern before the base existed or are operated from former bases and kept their own numbers. In many cases flight times, departure and arrival airports haven't changed as a result of this, meaning it's exactly the same flight in reality (although the airline in question will generally give a right to cancel/amend to another on the route for a 10 minute change, not sure if it applies in this case though).

Another (Irish) airline was claiming that a flight number or time change doesn't give a right to cancellation as it's a result of schedule adjustments COVID. I'm not sure if they have been challenged on this.

The issue here is that the flight number, departure airport and possibly time has changed. This will IMO possibly give rise to a claim, if it has been moved outside of the rules in EC261.

epm-84

CKhalvashi said:

silvercar said:

My understanding was that a change of flight number was grounds for a refund. A change of airport within a conurbation is not. LGW and LHR would both count as London airports.
Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 is what you want.

I'm sure a change of flight number on its own isn't, especially as one airline has renumbered a number of flights operated by one base to fit together, most of which were either operated in a 'W' pattern before the base existed or are operated from former bases and kept their own numbers. In many cases flight times, departure and arrival airports haven't changed as a result of this, meaning it's exactly the same flight in reality (although the airline in question will generally give a right to cancel/amend to another on the route for a 10 minute change, not sure if it applies in this case though).

Another (Irish) airline was claiming that a flight number or time change doesn't give a right to cancellation as it's a result of schedule adjustments COVID. I'm not sure if they have been challenged on this.

The issue here is that the flight number, departure airport and possibly time has changed. This will IMO possibly give rise to a claim, if it has been moved outside of the rules in EC261.

I think it's probably common sense that, if hypothetically a 09:25 Heathrow to Charles de Gaulle flight still departs at 09:25 but has a new flight number that you're not entitled to a refund, unless something else has changed e.g. if you booked business class and the new flight is economy only.  If on the other hand they had scheduled 5 flights per day and had reduced that to 2 flights per day due to low demand then they can't really expect passengers who had booked on any flight that day to either accept one of the new times or get a refund in the form of a voucher as it's the airline whose circumstances have changed, not the passenger's.

Easyjet once sent me an email informing my flight time has changed and offering me the option of moving to an alternative flight, the change being the landing time had been moved 10 minutes later.  I don't believe they needed to do that but then it's a more significant change it can be annoying.  For example, if a 22:00 arrival changes to 23:20 then it might make the difference between allowing you to get public transport from the airport and having to pay for a taxi but if you've also got a hotel booked and that's the only flight of the day there may not be much you can do.