Dimplex Vs German Ceramic Core Radiators

DaveGain

Hello, I think there have been posts about this in the past but I have been unable to get the information I need from what I have seen so apologies for any repetition.  We are looking to change our existing night storage heaters to something more economical and modern. we are looking at 2 options 1)Dimplex Quantum Night Storage or 2) Elkatherm Ceramic rads. I like the idea of the Elkatherm due to the controllability and also the assurance that I wont be using an astronomically high day rate (if a boost is required ono the Dimplex).  I am also concerned that the Dimplex may not have sufficient heat to last for the entire day, this is a deal breaker for me.  But at the same time some people have tried to steer me away from the Elkatherm saying that they are ridiculously expensive to run, despite what they promise in their marketing materials.  Ideally I would like advice from someone that has experience of both of these but I understand this might be difficult so if anyone can shed any light on either of these 2 that would be great.  I guess I would like to know;
1) Would the Dimplex heat my house sufficiently for an entire day?
2) I know the Dimplex use some day time rate to use the controls and fan - is this a lot (considering at 2 rate day tariff is about 20p)?
3) Are the Elkatherm as bad as some people say, I currently spend about £130/month on my heating (3 bed house) my current night storage heaters must be about 30 years old.  Would the cost be significantly less with an Elkatherm?
4) any advice if 2 rate tariffs will become a thing of the past soon as obviously if this were the case and I had gone for the Dimplex then these would need replacing again (this is really an after thought but seeing as I'm here, I may as well answer it).
Any advice at all would be very much appreciated as we are getting all confused on which way to turn.  Thank you

DaveGain

just an afterthought, I know the Dimplex has a boost but I don't want to use this as it will be using the expensive day rate so it really needs to give me sufficient heat and toasty warm evenings just on the night storage heat for it to be a good solution for us.

Gerry1

Forget magic dust heaters.  You need a certain number of kWh to maintain a given room at Y degrees above the external temperature, and there's no point in using expensive daytime kWh when you can use cheaper night ones.  IF a Quantum is correctly dimensioned and programmed it will keep the room warm through the evening.  The fan only uses a few watts so it's not an issue, and you'll get those watts as heat.

Your 20p/kWh day rate is very high: I hope the night rate and daily charge are almost zero !  Sounds like you need to start comparing using Citizens Advice and 'Switch with Which?'.

Quantum and suchlike are more efficient than old NSHs because better insulation means that they don't leak so much heat when it's not needed, e.g. overnight and during the day if the house is unoccupied.  However, they are not cheap to buy and the payback period may be quite long, so doing nothing (except finding a better tariff) may be your best plan.

matelodave

Having a trawl through the Elkatherm info doesn't indicate that they are storage heaters that use off peak energy in the same way as something like Dimplex Quantum does. They appear to use peak rate leccy with a fireclay core which probably has a limited storage anility, more like a delay when heating and cooling down.

Proper off peak storage heaters are designed to "charge" during the seven hour off peak period to provide sufficient heat for the following seventeen hours - ie a 3kw storage heater will take approx 3kwh for 7 hours = 21kwh of heat and then deliver that in a controlled manner during the time that it's required. That can be in short boost periods or slowly all day but as Gerry says, if your room needs a certain number of kwh then you either store it overnight and deliver it during the day or deliver it on demand with a peak rate heater.

There's no evidence in the Elkatherm specs that they are capable of storing anything but a limited amount of heat (fireclay is not really a storage medium in the same way as the extremely high density bricks inside a conventional storage heater). They may be slow to heat up and cool down but IMO they aren't actually storage heaters and will not store anything like the amount you need.

I guess that these heaters will have to use peak rate energy for the majority if not all of their operating time in much the same way as any other heater filled with magic dust, clay, oil or exotic unguent. TBH you would be better off buying a couple of oil filled rads from Argos - they'd cost the same to run but probably cost 10 times less to buy.

It's entirely up to you but I fear you'll be mightily disappointed when you find that you have to run these things on peak rate leccy.

You ask for people with experience of these sort of heaters - the best source is probably from those who been severely bitten by Fischer, Rointe and other suppliers of so called storage heaters - they are pretty few and far between (or not prepared to confess that they've been taken in) but there's no reason to suspect that Elkatherm are any different

MWT

What is actually wrong with your current storage heaters?

Are they poorly sized for your needs?

It is close to impossible to get a more efficient solution unless what you have is the wrong size and is forcing you to top up using day rate electricity.

macman

As above. All NSH's are the same efficiency: 100%. The difference with the modern ones which have a boost/fan facility is that they are more controllable. But, if you use them on day rate, it will cost you.
The Elkatherm appear not to be NSH's, so you will have to run them on single rate non-E7, at 3 times the cost.

Cardew

We really need to define efficiency when we talk about the efficiency of storage heaters. Your heaters have EXACTLY the same efficiency as any other storage heaters(or for that matter any electrical heaters). By 'efficiency' I mean they produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat for the same amount of electricity consumed.

Modern storage heaters like Dimplex Quantum have better insulation so they will not leak so much heat during the day and they probably have more control of the output; but, as stated above, the most definately do not produce more 'heat for your bucks'.

As for heaters filled and coated with any substance known to man and costing £thousands, they produce no more heat for the same input(and hence cost) than ANY other electric heater - from a £10 fan heater from Argos or Granny's old 1/2/3 bar heater . If they are filled with a dense substance they might retain their heat for a while, but will take longer to heat up.

It never ceases to amaze me that people are prepared to spend £thousands on new electrical heating, to save very little in running costs.

As suggested in the post above, why not retain your existing storage heating and by a couple of £10 fan heaters or £20 oil filled rads to supplement the heating as required.

Many of the posts about replacing storage heating on this forum are because the old heaters are big and ugly. If that is the case you can buy wooden cabinets.

Gerry1

Cardew said:

We really need to define efficiency when we talk about the efficiency of storage heaters. Your heaters have EXACTLY the same efficiency as any other storage heaters(or for that matter any electrical heaters). By 'efficiency' I mean they produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat for the same amount of electricity consumed.

That's true, because X kWh of electrical energy in will always give X kWh of heat out. However, that's a rather narrow definition of efficiency.

A clever, well insulated storage heater can be cheaper to run because it won't waste so much heat during the hours before dawn, and if you've been away for a weekend or on holiday you won't have wasted money by leaving it on in your absence (or having to top up with daytime electricity when you get back).  The output is also more controllable with a programmer rather than just a flap and a bimetallic strip.

So Quantum et all would be a good choice for a new installation, but a lengthy payback period might make it less attractive as a replacement for an existing system.

MWT

Took a quick look at the Elkatherm heaters and while they are called 'storage heaters' because they have a very small storage facility, they are not called 'night storage heaters' because they are not suitable for that purpose as they lack the storage capacity and features you would typically find on a proper NSH.

macman

Nevertheless, many people are conned into installing these by the marketing spiel and the efforts of slithery salesmen convincing them that they are purchasing clean and 'economic' storage heaters. The marketing material is closely targeted at the elderly and retired population.
It's a doubly cynical con. They are more expensive to run, and vastly overpriced, than the existing systems they replace.
If you look at the Elkatherm technical spec sheet, they clearly have some 'fireclay stone' storage capacity, as the weight is far in excess of what a conventional convector would be. But the giveaway is that there is no mention anywhere of the actual storage capacity for each size of heater.

danrv

Cardew said:

If they are filled with a dense substance they might retain their heat for a while, but will take longer to heat up. 

Yes, exactly. If from cold, they’ll use full power to get room up to temperature then will cycle on/off to maintain it.
That initial heat is in the radiator and not the room. A basic electric radiator of the same wattage would get room up to temperature quicker but would also cool quicker.
Same with a cheap fan heater of the same power.
All produce equivalent amount of heat, just in different ways.

I’m considering Dimplex Quantums to replace my warm air storage heater. I think they’ll be an improvement over 1970s insulation and galvanised steel ducting. 
It’s work in progress but after an enormous amount of research, I’ve decided not go with electric radiators.
Maybe ok for occasional use like bedrooms but not for main heating.