Separated parents: how can one receive child tax credits while the other receives child benefit?

gilbutre

Is this some kind of anomaly, or is it compliant with rules followed by decision makers? (if so, can anyone explain the particular rules involved which allow such seemingly contradictory situation?)
Note: it's all about the same only child, not different children

Tigsteroonie

"Receiving" them separately is easy - you can simply tell them one bank account number (say, his) for the CB payment and another bank account number (hers) for the CTC payment.

"Claiming" them separately - dunno.

gilbutre

Tigsteroonie said:

"Receiving" them separately is easy - you can simply tell them one bank account number (say, his) for the CB payment and another bank account number (hers) for the CTC payment.

"Claiming" them separately - dunno.

The addresses attached to both claims are different not just the bank accounts, everything.

calcotti

gilbutre said:

Is this some kind of anomaly, or is it compliant with rules followed by decision makers? (if so, can anyone explain the particular rules involved which allow such seemingly contradictory situation?)
Note: it's all about the same only child, not different children

I think usually one would expect both CB and CTC to go to the parent with primary responsibility for the child. However it is not a condition of receiving CTC that the claimant be in receipt of CB. I think somebody can continue to get CB for a child if they contribute at least that much towards the child's welfare even though they may not have primary responsibility for the child (but this of course prevents the primary carer getting the CB).

This is the part of the Tax Credits manual that deals with responsibility for a child https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/tax-credits-manual/tcm0114080 which includes this statement

When deciding main responsibility for a child or young person, the fact that someone receives Child Benefit for that child or young person must not be considered.

Without more information about the circumstances it's very hard to comment. 

Presumably you are referring to a longstanding situation as a couple separating now would, in almost all cases, lose their entitlement to CTC and have to switch to UC.

gilbutre

calcotti said:

gilbutre said:

Is this some kind of anomaly, or is it compliant with rules followed by decision makers? (if so, can anyone explain the particular rules involved which allow such seemingly contradictory situation?)
Note: it's all about the same only child, not different children

I think usually one would expect both CB and CTC to go to the parent with primary responsibility for the child. However it is not a condition of receiving CTC that the claimant be in receipt of CB. I think somebody can continue to get CB for a child if they contribute at least that much towards the child's welfare even though they may not have primary responsibility for the child (but this of course prevents the primary carer getting the CB).

This is the part of the Tax Credits manual that deals with responsibility for a child https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/tax-credits-manual/tcm0114080 which includes this statement

When deciding main responsibility for a child or young person, the fact that someone receives Child Benefit for that child or young person must not be considered.

Without more information about the circumstances it's very hard to comment. 

Presumably you are referring to a longstanding situation as a couple separating now would, in almost all cases, lose their entitlement to CTC and have to switch to UC.

Thanks. Sorry I said CTC but I was referring to either CTC or UC - I believe (not 100% sure) that my daughter's mum actually receives UC instead of CTC. And I receive CB. All for the same child.

calcotti

gilbutre said: Thanks. Sorry I said CTC but I was referring to either CTC or UC - I believe (not 100% sure) that my daughter's mum actually receives UC instead of CTC. And I receive CB. All for the same child.

Who is the primary carer? Do you contribute to the child's upkeep?

For UC the child element is payable to the person with primary responsibility
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890310/admf1.pdf

F1056 The responsible person is

1. the person with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives or

2. where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the person who has main responsibility.

The following paragraphs in that document gives examples. It goes on to say

F1063  Where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the deciding factor will be the person who has main responsibility. Who has that main responsibility should be decided between the persons with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives.

F1064  If

1. joint agreement cannot be reached as to which person has main responsibility or

2. in the opinion of the DM the choice of person with main responsibility does not reflect the actual arrangements the DM may determine which person has main responsibility.

Document then goes on to list things to betaken into account. Receipt of Child Benefit is not one of them.

Eligibility for Child Benefit is outlined here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit/eligibility

You’ll usually be responsible for a child if you live with them or you’re paying at least the same amount as Child Benefit (or the equivalent in kind) towards looking after them, for example on food, clothes or pocket money.

And here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-child-lives-with-someone-else

You’ll usually get Child Benefit for 8 weeks after your child goes to live with someone else (eg a friend or relative), if nobody else claims. It can continue for longer if you make contributions to your child’s upkeep.
You could continue to get payments for more than 8 weeks if you contribute to your child’s upkeep by the same amount or more than the Child Benefit payment.

So it is possible for different parents to receive CB and the child element of UC.

Are you in receipt of benefits other than CB?

ZaSa1418

Ok so this is where our benefit system gets interesting and backwards imho. 
Child tax credits are a benefit dependent on more than just proving main responsibility, the main other factor is the income of both households and the lowest income household is more likely to 'win' if there was a contested claim as the child would benefit more in terms of the amounts paid in a non or low working household, 
Child benefit you just have to prove main responsibility. 

gilbutre

calcotti said:

gilbutre said: Thanks. Sorry I said CTC but I was referring to either CTC or UC - I believe (not 100% sure) that my daughter's mum actually receives UC instead of CTC. And I receive CB. All for the same child.

Who is the primary carer? Do you contribute to the child's upkeep?

For UC the child element is payable to the person with primary responsibility
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890310/admf1.pdf

F1056 The responsible person is

1. the person with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives or

2. where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the person who has main responsibility.

The following paragraphs in that document gives examples. It goes on to say

F1063  Where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the deciding factor will be the person who has main responsibility. Who has that main responsibility should be decided between the persons with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives.

F1064  If

1. joint agreement cannot be reached as to which person has main responsibility or

2. in the opinion of the DM the choice of person with main responsibility does not reflect the actual arrangements the DM may determine which person has main responsibility.

Document then goes on to list things to betaken into account. Receipt of Child Benefit is not one of them.

Eligibility for Child Benefit is outlined here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit/eligibility

You’ll usually be responsible for a child if you live with them or you’re paying at least the same amount as Child Benefit (or the equivalent in kind) towards looking after them, for example on food, clothes or pocket money.

And here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-child-lives-with-someone-else

You’ll usually get Child Benefit for 8 weeks after your child goes to live with someone else (eg a friend or relative), if nobody else claims. It can continue for longer if you make contributions to your child’s upkeep.
You could continue to get payments for more than 8 weeks if you contribute to your child’s upkeep by the same amount or more than the Child Benefit payment.

So it is possible for different parents to receive CB and the child element of UC.

Are you in receipt of benefits other than CB?

Thank you so much for being so helpful. I just receive CB. The child spends exactly 50% of the time at each parent's address. I have no clue how this information is registered by the local authority though.. Nor do they: this morning I called the school admissions department of my city council and asked them how exactly do they know how much time a child spends at each parent, they were unable to provide a clear answer. Can we update the council about this? No clue. How do they know then? No clue

calcotti

gilbutre said: Thank you so much for being so helpful. I just receive CB. The child spends exactly 50% of the time at each parent's address. I have no clue how this information is registered by the local authority though.. Nor do they: this morning I called the school admissions department of my city council and asked them how exactly do they know how much time a child spends at each parent, they were unable to provide a clear answer. Can we update the council about this? No clue. How do they know then? No clue

As you can see from the documents I reference the default position is for the parents to agree. DWP will make an assessment if they think parental choice does not reflect the facts or if parents cannot agree. 
As you are not claiming any means tested benefits you are not suffering any detriment because your ex gets the child element of UC. If you are contributing to your daughter's upkeep you appear to be entitled to continue to receive the CB, if you don't then you are not.
You will see also from the UC guidance that time spent with a parent is not necessarily a determining factor, other factors include who organises things etc.
Am not clear what is behind your question.
As far as I am aware schools are expected to treat both parents equally.

ZaSa1418

gilbutre said:

calcotti said:

gilbutre said: Thanks. Sorry I said CTC but I was referring to either CTC or UC - I believe (not 100% sure) that my daughter's mum actually receives UC instead of CTC. And I receive CB. All for the same child.

Who is the primary carer? Do you contribute to the child's upkeep?

For UC the child element is payable to the person with primary responsibility
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890310/admf1.pdf

F1056 The responsible person is

1. the person with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives or

2. where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the person who has main responsibility.

The following paragraphs in that document gives examples. It goes on to say

F1063  Where the child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, the deciding factor will be the person who has main responsibility. Who has that main responsibility should be decided between the persons with whom the child or qualifying young person normally lives.

F1064  If

1. joint agreement cannot be reached as to which person has main responsibility or

2. in the opinion of the DM the choice of person with main responsibility does not reflect the actual arrangements the DM may determine which person has main responsibility.

Document then goes on to list things to betaken into account. Receipt of Child Benefit is not one of them.

Eligibility for Child Benefit is outlined here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit/eligibility

You’ll usually be responsible for a child if you live with them or you’re paying at least the same amount as Child Benefit (or the equivalent in kind) towards looking after them, for example on food, clothes or pocket money.

And here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-child-lives-with-someone-else

You’ll usually get Child Benefit for 8 weeks after your child goes to live with someone else (eg a friend or relative), if nobody else claims. It can continue for longer if you make contributions to your child’s upkeep.
You could continue to get payments for more than 8 weeks if you contribute to your child’s upkeep by the same amount or more than the Child Benefit payment.

So it is possible for different parents to receive CB and the child element of UC.

Are you in receipt of benefits other than CB?

Thank you so much for being so helpful. I just receive CB. The child spends exactly 50% of the time at each parent's address. I have no clue how this information is registered by the local authority though.. Nor do they: this morning I called the school admissions department of my city council and asked them how exactly do they know how much time a child spends at each parent, they were unable to provide a clear answer. Can we update the council about this? No clue. How do they know then? No clue

The parent receiving child benefit is seen as the main carer in many places, schools included. 
' In all cases we expect that the adult with whom the child is ‘ordinarily resident’ receives the child benefit for the child ' this line is in a lot of the application forms/ booklets for school applications.

calcotti

ZaSa1418 said: The parent receiving child benefit is seen as the main carer in many places, schools included. 

' In all cases we expect that the adult with whom the child is ‘ordinarily resident’ receives the child benefit for the child ' this line is in a lot of the application forms/ booklets for school applications.

But is not necessarily true!