Excess liability

finlayjay

I am a home owner in a building that has mixed owner, tenant(gha factors)  living in six properties. Flat above  me is factor owned and recently had a burst pipe which flooded my bathroom damaging thr roof severely. They gave me a number to make a claim which I did. I forwarded two quotes and the lesser quote was accepted. They advised that part of the total would be paid directly into my account  less £350 excess and advised I had to claim that back from factor. Factor (who I pay block building insurance) saying sorry they are not liable. So a factors property damages my home and I am £350 out of pocket... How does that work, who is liable... To say I am angry is an understatement. Any advice would be gratefully accepted. Regards, Finlay, Glasgow. 

coachman12

Management companies ( presumably called Factors in Scotland ? ) generally have a pretty poor reputation ----some are awful. Does the same Management Company that acts for tenants also act for owners like you ( though I assume you as an owner are a leasehold owner ; and there is someone else who owns the freehold, and you may need to contact the freehold owner either directly or via the management company). From what I know, the Management Company will be charging all residents a service charge which covers building insurance which would normally deal with all such claims for the sort of damage you mention. If there is an excess on the insurance policy, it should be stated somewhere in the head-lease which may be applicable to you, just as it is to your neighbour. If you have such a head-lease, I suggest you see what it says about home damage insurance. It may help. 
I think it may only be those on this Forum who know about Scottish Landlord/ Tenant matters and the legislation governing those and Scottish flats who are able to help you. Sorry I can't do better, but I hope you get a good outcome to what sounds pretty bad in the with-holding of £350 from you.

Sandtree

I am afraid that scottish flat ownership if also a bit of a mystery to me other than knowing it is materially different to the rest of the UK.

What is the building insurance situation for the overall building? Are you collectively paying into a block policy either directly or via an overarching fee that also covers communal area maintenance etc?

davidmcn

OP, I think you're conflating two things - the fact that the landlord of the flat also happens to be the factor is irrelevant.

The owners of the burst pipe are only going to be liable to you if they were negligent in some way - were they? If it's something which happened out of the blue then the excess is your problem, I'm afraid, assuming you don't have any separate insurance which might help.

davidmcn

coachman12 said:

though I assume you as an owner are a leasehold owner ; and there is someone else who owns the freehold

Luckily in Scotland we don't have the nonsense that is leasehold for residential properties.

Sandtree

davidmcn said:

coachman12 said:

though I assume you as an owner are a leasehold owner ; and there is someone else who owns the freehold

Luckily in Scotland we don't have the nonsense that is leasehold for residential properties.

Clearly as someone who knows the Scottish system.... how does buildings cover normally work on blocks of flats? I'd assume its still block insurance from a practicality perspective but unsure of what structure exists for purchasing the insurance. 

Trying to think of it in English terms, the OP has a share of freehold, they contacted one of the other share of freeholders who gave them insurance details... if it was a block insurance contributed to by all freeholders then you'd have thought the OP already had those details unless this freeholder, as a "factor", is also a management agency and therefore performs certain tasks like arranging insurance on behalf of all the freeholders. In which case presumably some agreement must exist which will define who has to pay things like the excess or contribute what to maintenance etc?

davidmcn

Sandtree said:

davidmcn said:

coachman12 said:

though I assume you as an owner are a leasehold owner ; and there is someone else who owns the freehold

Luckily in Scotland we don't have the nonsense that is leasehold for residential properties.

Clearly as someone who knows the Scottish system.... how does buildings cover normally work on blocks of flats? I'd assume its still block insurance from a practicality perspective but unsure of what structure exists for purchasing the insurance. 

Trying to think of it in English terms, the OP has a share of freehold, they contacted one of the other share of freeholders who gave them insurance details... if it was a block insurance contributed to by all freeholders then you'd have thought the OP already had those details unless this freeholder, as a "factor", is also a management agency and therefore performs certain tasks like arranging insurance on behalf of all the freeholders. In which case presumably some agreement must exist which will define who has to pay things like the excess or contribute what to maintenance etc?

Block policies are commonplace (particularly for modern blocks, or those like this one which is ex-council) though probably just as common for each owner to arrange their own insurance. The titles will deal with maintenance liabilities for common parts, but I assume here the OP is concerned just with damage within his own flat.

Sandtree

davidmcn said:

Sandtree said:

davidmcn said:

coachman12 said:

though I assume you as an owner are a leasehold owner ; and there is someone else who owns the freehold

Luckily in Scotland we don't have the nonsense that is leasehold for residential properties.

Clearly as someone who knows the Scottish system.... how does buildings cover normally work on blocks of flats? I'd assume its still block insurance from a practicality perspective but unsure of what structure exists for purchasing the insurance. 

Trying to think of it in English terms, the OP has a share of freehold, they contacted one of the other share of freeholders who gave them insurance details... if it was a block insurance contributed to by all freeholders then you'd have thought the OP already had those details unless this freeholder, as a "factor", is also a management agency and therefore performs certain tasks like arranging insurance on behalf of all the freeholders. In which case presumably some agreement must exist which will define who has to pay things like the excess or contribute what to maintenance etc?

Block policies are commonplace (particularly for modern blocks, or those like this one which is ex-council) though probably just as common for each owner to arrange their own insurance. The titles will deal with maintenance liabilities for common parts, but I assume here the OP is concerned just with damage within his own flat.

It was more for my own curiosity, in share of freehold here things like payment of insurance or maintenance of common parts are rarely covered by the deeds themselves in any detail and so can lead to challenges if no formal mechanism to agree these things exists... at our last rental (which we looked to buy hence getting into the detail) there was an age old argument about if the electronic gates to the carpark should remain fob operated for residents or the keypad entry used by the bin men etc should be extended for all to use... three years on and they were yet to agree who should even have a right to vote on the matter (freeholders only, plus leaseholders, plus next door freeholders and/or leaseholders who paid 50% towards the maintenance)  

finlayjay

Thanks to all for quick reply. Bottom line when all is said and done my property has been damaged by another household, although partly reimbursed by owner(factor who I pay block insurance too) I am raging I am  £350  out of pocket. If I cause damage to my home and make a claim then I get the paying excess bit. Shocking state of affairs in my opinion. I don't accept "it wasn't foreseeable in our part" nonsense. Same as your stationary car being damaged by another moving vehicle, both parties insured, my car gets repaired and I have to pay first £350!! Just can't get my head around this no matter how hard I try. So factors like the GHA in my case can have 100s of properties that can have an "unforseen" burst pipes and they will accept liability by referring them on to third party to sort payment out but  only part pay out!  If I cause damage and I am insured I can understand myself having to pay an excess but not in my situation. Absolute scandal!! 

davidmcn

Like I said above, this is nothing at all to do with factors (other than they happen to have arranged the insurance), so you need to stop going on about that, it's between you and the owner upstairs. The fact they are also the factors is just a coincidence. You'd be having exactly the same discussion if somebody else was the owner, or if there wasn't a block policy.

The principle is that they're only liable where there is negligence - which in your moving vehicle example, there usually would be. So if they had done a bad plumbing job or someone left the bath running etc then yes, they would be liable. If nobody could have anticipated it, it's just one of those things.

finlayjay

Thank you David, I appreciate your input but your advice does not temper  my frustration at why everytime I get flooded from above it will cost me £350. 
I don't accept my issue is with the person who lives there at all, I don't expect her to be out of pocket as it was not her fault or intentional damage, I get that. My point is  neither should I be expected to pay it. If I flood the property below me owned by the same  building group as owns above then the irony is going to be, with your reading of the situation, I wouldn't be a penny out of pocket and would expect to pay nothing as it was "unforseen". Apologies again David if I am coming across as thick for not grasping your logic but £350 is an awful lot of money in my world. Also despite the official legal type, (which I greatfully respect) theme of your answer, getting up in the morning to find an inch of water on your bathroom floor (more than once) and despite having all insurance in place and up to date the fact remains if you want it fixed... start by finding £350 before you even kick a ball as being a tad "unfair". Thanks again David, I appreciate you taking time to respond.