Court Proceedings Oct 2020

Le_Kirk

Still celebrating maybe!

Lupo26

awaiting outcome. hope you won!!

Tagfish88

I lost, Judge dismissed by Defence on the following basis;
There was a contract formed with VCS when I entered the car park - the argument that my contract with the landowner supersedes any contract with VCS fell on deaf ears - Parking eye vs Beavis case was noted.
I also argued that there was no validity date on the permit given to me, therefore simply having a permit colour change can not invalidate my permit as a resident to park there. I was clearly a resident, and the permit I had was clearly displayed. The fact that VCS went through 1 year without checking whether this permit was valid & didn't even check this when pursuing money from me wasn't given two seconds. VCS used a scatter gun approach - tried to make a number of things stick on me, the guy in court clearly had no knowledge of the residence and made a number of false claims. While I was able to dismiss these ultimately the judge ruled in their favour. The Judge told me it was my argument with the management company not with VCS and they had done their duty. 

To be honest, reading a lot of stuff on this forum was interesting but probably posts a rosier picture of how a judge sees a case like this, and i would imagine unless the law fundamentally changes then people will continue losing cases no matter how unfair. The Judge said that if he was ruling on "fairness" then it would be a different picture, but he ruled on the law and the law is written in favour of these companies. He also dismissed any argument regarding this bogus £60 that all parking companies put on as "debt collection". Interesting experience, but I'd advise all people unless they have a cut and dried case to just pay the fine - loads of time went into this and ultimately ended up paying 3x the original fee. 

Tagfish88

But while disappointing, I do appreciate everyone who has commented to try and give helpful advice, unfortunately though none of it stands up in court. Maybe someone more experienced in court would be able to do better, I'm not sure. 

Redx

Sorry to hear about your loss , but make your feelings and thoughts be known on the 2 government surveys for change , , see this coupon mad post in another thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6119137/county-court-letter-defence-against-gladstones-ukcpm#latest

Or this one


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6104993/parking-ticket-expired-now-i-have-court-claim-form#latest

D_P_Dance

Very few people lose "own space" cases and I suspect that you did not best play the hand which you were dealt.  Having said that, it may well be that the judge got it wrong, but your original posts, (both on the same event), lacked detail ahd you give me the impression that you have not given this your full attention.  I hope that no-one follows your advice and puts in the hours instead. 

Did the judge award the scammer the fake £60?  Another thing you have not told us.

beamerguy

Sorry to hear that over such a trivial matter.   You had a daft judge, there are still a few around and it's because they are so daft and don't live in the real world that despite everything we say and do, we cannot reach the unreachable.

I wonder if this judge understands the Beavis case, it seems not regarding the fake £60 and he certainly does not understand the courts own ruling of Double recovery ?  

However, it is wrong of you to advise people "just to pay up" just because you lost. The sucess rate of this forum is very high, it's not 100% but close .... but we cannot take into account the daft judges 
And you said "But while disappointing, I do appreciate everyone who has commented to try and give helpful advice, unfortunately though none of it stands up in court. Maybe someone more experienced in court would be able to do better, I'm not sure. "

The advice given on this forum has stood the test of time and it works to the detriment of parking companies.  The advice is do not pay .. and I advise newbies and others to ignore such comments

Snakes_Belly

"It is only now they have presented evidence from Feb 2020 of an email between the management company and themselves to say that the colour of the permit at the time was invalid. I was only given a new permit later on in 2020 but of course now I have submitted by defence and witness statement I have not addressed that issue in it."

I am sorry that you have lost. Going to court is a lottery and I think that the above mentioned email may have been difficult to argue and overcome. It  also seems like an ambush which should not have been allowed. It would also depend what was stated in the lease. 

Hopefully the situation will change when the new CoP comes into force and issues like yours will just encounter a small admin charge at the most.

I think that the judge was harsh but occasionally this does happen.  It has happened with a disabled badge holder whose badge fell from the dashboard. That was a very harsh judgment because the disability had not gone away. 

I think that my next step would be to try to have some involvement in the management of the development. There is usually a representative of the owners/tenants on the management committee to represent their views.

Johnersh

@tagfish88 I am sorry to hear of your loss. Based on your version of events, I do think it ought to have been possible to defend it:  If you'd never been sent the correct permit by them, it was impossible for you to perform any supposed obligation. 

But I was not in court nor have I read all the documents, so I can't second guess any of that. 

In relation to your further thoughts, it is essential that everyone understands the following:

1. small claim or not, this is litigation. *Once in a courtroom, anything is possible.*  You may or may not be more persuasive, the judge may be grumpy etc. It's why in most high value claims lawyers actively seek to avoid a trial - the polar opposite of the focus in parking claims. 
2. To prepare takes time. If you have the cash, but not the time, you may choose to pay (and many do). 
3. Those that fight are helping to change the landscape in which parking cos may operate.

Umkomaas

Sorry for the loss, but at the point in time you approached the forum, over 12 months ago, VCS had issued the court claim, so you were more or less committed to paying them what they were asking for at that point to avoid court. Once at court it was a 'winner take all' situation. 

But you did not make any further contact with the forum from October last year until just a few days before your hearing. We had no opportunity to check through and advise on your Defence, Witness Statement or evidence. Had we done so, your chances might have been much higher. 

Make sure you pay whatever the Judge states by the deadline to avoid any further complications.