Section 21 and a rent increase.

jackill8

CIS said:

However in this case it'snot the situation so OP has to deal with the current arrangement.

Any arrangement with the landlord cannot override legislation. There is no particular point in trying the 'landlord is liable' route vis s8 as it's only going to add in an additional step to the matter that is not relevant in anything but the very short term.

...Within the house, above the garage there is a self contained flat which is also rented out by our landlord. Suppose to be one single person. We pay for the gas, electric, water, council tax and TV licence. For the flat..

The matter is correctly dealt with by notifying the council of the two separate units of occupation and having the council tax banding corrected by the VOA in order that the OP is paying only their own council tax, as would be the correct resulting situation.

The flat has been occupied for over three years with its own entrance and fully self contained. The council wouldn't look for me to pay any tax on it, would they? The Tenants of the flat paid the LL directly. There's no council tax being paid on it as it's not known to any authority. I pay the council tax for the house. 

saajan_12

CIS said:

However in this case it'snot the situation so OP has to deal with the current arrangement.

Any arrangement with the landlord cannot override legislation. There is no particular point in trying the 'landlord is liable' route vis s8 as it's only going to add in an additional step to the matter that is not relevant in anything but the very short term.

...Within the house, above the garage there is a self contained flat which is also rented out by our landlord. Suppose to be one single person. We pay for the gas, electric, water, council tax and TV licence. For the flat..

The matter is correctly dealt with by notifying the council of the two separate units of occupation and having the council tax banding corrected by the VOA in order that the OP is paying only their own council tax, as would be the correct resulting situation.

The agreement with the LL isn't trying to override legislation. It can create a contractual liability between the two parties in the amount of the CT on the overall plot however. 

Legislation covers the liability for council tax To the council. There can still be a contractual agreement between the tenant and LL  where the tenant agrees to cover the total CT, in return for a discount. If they don't and the council chase the LL for some CT on the flat, the LL could pay that and reclaim it from the tenant per the agreement. 

CIS

Legislation covers the liability for council tax To the council. There can still be a contractual agreement between the tenant and LL  where the tenant agrees to cover the total CT, in return for a discount. If they don't and the council chase the LL for some CT on the flat, the LL could pay that and reclaim it from the tenant per the agreement. 

At the moment the property is not correctly banded, that is the point being made. By not having declared it so far to the council/VOA, and doing it the way the landlord is presently doing it, he is clearly trying to avoid the issue of the banding. Regardless of any contractual agreement the property should be split and the flat placed in the name of the tenant as the liable resident - if someone then pays for the tenant that is their issue however it doesn't alter the fact that the liability is that of the tenant.

There's no council tax being paid on it as it's not known to any authority. I pay the council tax for the house. 

Your original post says

We pay for the gas, electric, water, council tax and TV licence. For the flat and have received a reduced rent because of this.

It has been hidden from the council/VOA by not being declared by the landlord. Once the council/VOA find out then a backdated bill will be issued and it should go the landlord (who then identifies any tenant) however don't assume it's going to be that easy to resolve - it shouldn't be in your name etc but don't assume the council will get it correct. Far too often they get it wrong.

Does the lease you have make any reference to the 'flat' ?

jackill8

CIS said:

Legislation covers the liability for council tax To the council. There can still be a contractual agreement between the tenant and LL  where the tenant agrees to cover the total CT, in return for a discount. If they don't and the council chase the LL for some CT on the flat, the LL could pay that and reclaim it from the tenant per the agreement. 

At the moment the property is not correctly banded, that is the point being made. By not having declared it so far to the council/VOA, and doing it the way the landlord is presently doing it, he is clearly trying to avoid the issue of the banding. Regardless of any contractual agreement the property should be split and the flat placed in the name of the tenant as the liable resident - if someone then pays for the tenant that is their issue however it doesn't alter the fact that the liability is that of the tenant.

There's no council tax being paid on it as it's not known to any authority. I pay the council tax for the house. 

Your original post says

We pay for the gas, electric, water, council tax and TV licence. For the flat and have received a reduced rent because of this.

It has been hidden from the council/VOA by not being declared by the landlord. Once the council/VOA find out then a backdated bill will be issued and it should go the landlord (who then identifies any tenant) however don't assume it's going to be that easy to resolve - it shouldn't be in your name etc but don't assume the council will get it correct. Far too often they get it wrong.

Does the lease you have make any reference to the 'flat' ?

No none at all the LL seems to be under the impression they don't need it as it's not self contained in their eyes. Therefore doesn't need it's own tax. Our contract says we basically rent a room out. I think they're aware of what should be done. I'm not sure what contract they have with the flat tenants. But I know they pay a flat fee with all bills included. 

CIS

No none at all the LL seems to be under the impression they don't need it as it's not self contained in their eyes. Therefore doesn't need it's own tax.

It's not the landlord's decision to make - from what's been described it meets every box needed to band it (Even it it wasn't self contained, it's in separate occupation, so that alone ticks the boxes for a separate banding but the property, as it is, is also clearly self-contained for council tax purposes).

Our contract says we basically rent a room out

Which, of course, is not correct as you don't rent it out - the landlord does. How exactly is your tenancy worded in this respect?

Basically,it seems he's doing everything he can to hide and obscure the fact that he is renting it out and there's a lot of ways that it can backfire on you.

jackill8

"Saffron is renting a room in the property" 
Saffron moved out and now has a couple in there neither have signed an agreement that I have seen or been a part of. 

CIS

jackill8 said:

"Saffron is renting a room in the property" 
Saffron moved out and now has a couple in there neither have signed an agreement that I have seen or been a part of. 

To be truthful, the whole situation is a complete mess compared to where it should be (for council tax purposes and tenancy purposes).

Short of some bizarrely completed agreement over leasing and sub-leasing, it's clear that you only rent the house, you have no control over the 'flat' and the landlord seems to done everything he can to hide the fact that he is renting out the 'f'lat'. These are the sort of things that, when they go wrong, usually end up being a complete faff to unravel and put right.

If you were renting out the 'flat' then it's pretty clear that it is a separate dwelling - this means that it's almost certainly a tenancy and you would be legally responsible as the landlord - repair duties, tenancy deposit protection duties, right to rent checks etc would all be your duties (and you would have failed in these duties already - some of which can be criminal offences).