6 PCNs from UKCPM ANPR Car Park - Paid cash every time

waffle83

Hi
I foolishly didn't read up before putting my first appeals in at UKCPM. I've now read the NEWBIES thread and seen that I should have used the template there.
Situation: Driver parked at small city centre car park near workplace several times within 2 weeks. Has used in past and not had issues but it has changed to ANPR over lockdown. Entered Reg & Paid at machine for time needed, machine does not give ticket but says Processing. I checked UKCPM site and it says this should whitelist your Reg on their system. Cleary this did not happen because I have received 6 PCNs since. I now know these are NTKs. 
I promptly put in appeals as I'm aware that companies now pursue unpaid tickets and naively thought ticket was paid, machine fault, surely they'd check that and correct it. I was mistaken, and they rejected all the appeals. 
I put the appeals in through the online form and checked Registered Keeper box, but didn't take screenshots. In it was simply stated something to effect of 'Parking charge was paid at machine as per signage. There must be an error with your system. Please investigate'. I don't believe I ever alluded to who driver was so think I did that bit right. 

Question: The T&Cs were followed, but I have no proof because they do not give tickets. As I didn't use the template, I didn't request the PDT machine details outlined in it. I am now wondering, could I submit the First appeals through the UKCPM form again using the template to try to force them to check the machine logs or would that create more issues for me later on? Everywhere here says not to bother with IAS.
My main concern is with 6 PCNs/£600 of fines, and no ticket to prove payment, that they will definitely take this to court. 

As this is one of those gravelly plots of land in a city centre, I have no clue who the landowner is to contact them. I expect others must have had same issues and stopped parking there now so maybe they'll notice revenues are down.

I have the same letter as this thread (no scanner right now) - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77246627#Comment_77246627
Signage:


Thanks in advance

Redx

So what are your specific questions ??

Yes they are likely to issue a court claim , if that is one

Check with the Land Registry , if that is another one

No appeals will work , not one , not ten

Email a SAR to the DPO at the PPC to obtain all data including redacted PDT data , documents and pictures etc

Coupon-mad

Go in now without a car and pay the minimum £1 in cash as if your car was there, and film yourself doing it, and prove that the machine is faulty and doesn't print a receipt or anything in a durable medium to confirm payment but it keeps the money.

Then send that video to your local paper and get them to publish it.  I suspect UKCPM will cancel all your PCNs and other people will come forward as well, because it can't be only you.  Also send the video to whoever the landowner is, try to find out or ask the paper to help you find out.

The above is the proactive way to quash these.  Otherwise you will be waiting to be sued but the video is needed, either way (keep it for 6 years just in case, unless they are cancelled by the landowner or publicity of the faulty machines).

waffle83

Thanks both for the replies. I'm going to get the footage today, good idea about local paper. I didn't want to kick up a fuss on social media as it would identify me.
I got the title from the land registry and it's owned by a professional services firm and Gallan Parking (who appear to work with UKCPM from the signage). I don't know who to contact at those firms as a general enquiry may not get far. Not even sure Gallan will care, but I can take your advice and ask local paper on that too. 

Should I still submit the SAR ready for the legal route? This implies they scrub machine records after 1 month and first ticket is for 25/08.

I've prepared these points, does the last point cover it? I'm concerned that VRN data isn't covered even if I provide my Reg & V5C

Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself. Include:

·         All photos taken

·         All letters/emails/written correspondence sent and received, including any appeal correspondence

·         All data held, including evidence you will rely on, and a full copy of the PCNs

Thanks

KeithP

waffle83 said:

This implies they scrub machine records after 1 month and first ticket is for 25/08.

That's for 'authorised users'. Otherwise they say they keep data for two years.

Coupon-mad

Just send it anyway and see what they come back with, and alert the paper and your MP.  And show us your video too!

Your case is desperate for evidence that the machines are not working but take the money and look like they are processing it.

D_P_Dance

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, sometimes it can lead to cancellation., i

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, and darfts have beenopened for publc consulatation,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, under new legislation but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/

Please also read these and have your say

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

You do not need to register to comment on the enforcement framework which can be found here. It has a link on page 5 to make comments.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/913272/Code_Enforcement_Framework_consultation.pdf

BrownTrout

Which car park is this......

waffle83

BrownTrout said:

Which car park is this......

Livery St, Birmingham. I was cautious of giving any details after all the warnings of identifying information, however I cannot be the only person affected..
Update - Footage of making payment acquired, someone else got it and it's very shaky so I'll post when I can blur out the reg properly. Might spend another £1 to get steadier footage if needed. 
I've also written to a local paper and to my MP so awaiting responses there and will update when I get any. I'm trying to read through the links from D_P_Dance when I get time. Thanks again for all the replies. 

waffle83

Just to share this part of the appeal rejection letter that makes me angry every time I read it because it states, in capitals,  everything that was actually done correctly by the driver. 

Coupon-mad

@waffle83 do this (below) please!  The MHCLG are listening to public comments about this scam industry for another week or so.

They are keen to hear from people like you with issues such as non-functioning machines and to find a way to stop this happening to people in future.  Also comments are invited about the whole Code of Practice and most people feel that parking charges (double the amount of Council ones) are extortionate.  Please now make a real difference because not enough people have yet, and time is running out.   

There is a section about non-functioning machines.  You may wish to comment on that, and other sections, and answer the MHCLG's questions as well on the separate consultation (please do...).

The Government is consulting for just a few more days, about a new statutory code of practice (CoP) and framework intended to rein in the rogue parking firms. 

Read and comment on the draft CoP proposal and the enforcement framework consultation (two separate consultation documents).

HOW TO DO THE SUBMISSIONS:

BSI PAS 232 – COMMENTING ON THE CODE OF PRACTICE AS DRAFTED:

1.    You will need to register then log in, to comment on the CoP and enter an occupation even if you are retired or a homemaker.  

 

2.    Register, log into the BSI page, and download & read the cover letter here:

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

 

3.    Read the cover letter again and note the suggested extra questions... if you agree that, say, the 'loading/unloading and dropping off, asking for directions, and disabled people parking on double yellows as they can on street' activities listed should be exempt (not parking events, what do you think?) then please go to the Annexes at the end of the PAS Code and find the one about Exempt Vehicles and state what other activity you think should be added to the exempt list. 

 

4.    Download the PAS itself and start commenting on what you wish to say something about.  Quick links to each section appear on the left of your page. 

 

You don’t have to comment on everything, e.g. you might want to skip the definitions and focus on later sections, and certainly look at the Annex tables at the end that show things like consideration & grace periods and exemptions.

 

5.    Submit comments when you are happy with them. Don’t just ‘SAVE’ and forget!

 

THAT IS HALF THE JOB DONE!

THE MHCLG CONSULTATION IS EASIER AS IT IS JUST A LIST OF QUESTIONS. 

 

6.    You can do it first if preferred or pushed for time:

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=EGg0v32c3kOociSi7zmVqAVPfAOtwRxLhHRwQ610oElUMzhQSVo0WUQ4SERVSEZaUU9DTUhFQ1VMUy4u

If your answers exceed 4000 characters (approx. 500 words to a single question or 16000 words (approx. 2500 words) for all the questions below, you can email your answers to parking@communities.gov.uk as long as you state who you are.

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS YOU WILL SEE, FOR RESPONSES TO THE FRAMEWORK:

Q1 Do you agree or disagree that members of APAs should be required to use a single appeals service appointed by the Secretary of State?

Strongly agree/Somewhat agree/Neither agree nor disagree/Somewhat disagree/Strongly disagree

 

Q1.1 Please explain your answer

(free text)

 

 

Q2 Please provide any other feedback on the determination of appeals, including the funding model and features that an appeal service should offer e.g. telephone or in-person hearings, the ability to submit evidence online

(free text)

 

Q3 Please provide any comments you have on the proposal to enforce the Code by combining the ATA’s existing audit procedures with additional safeguards.

(free text)

 

Q4 Please outline any alternative means by which the Code could be monitored and enforced. You may wish to cite evidence from other regulatory frameworks which are relevant.

(free text)

 

Q5 Please provide any feedback you have on the proposed governance arrangements for monitoring the new Code of Practice

(free text)

 

Q6 Which parking charge system is most appropriate for private parking?

 a) the Three-tiered system

 b) Mirroring the Local Authority system

(free text)

 

 Q6.1 Please explain your answer. You may, for example, wish to make reference to other deterrent frameworks (for example, for railway tickets or traffic violations)

(free text)

 

 

Q7 What level of discount is appropriate:

40% as is currently offered in private parking and suggested in the three-tiered system, or

50% as is offered in Local Authority parking?

a) 40%

b) 50%

 

Q7.1 Please explain your answer, including whether the discount should be set at a different level

(free text)

 

 

 Q8 How should the level of parking charges be set and how should the levels be revised in future?

(free text)

 

 

Q9 Do you agree or disagree in principle with the idea of the Appeals Charter?

Agree/Disagree

 

Q9.1 Please explain your answer

(free text)

 

 

Q10 Do you agree or not that the examples given in the Appeals Charter are fair and appropriate? Agree/Disagree

 

Q10.1 Please explain your answer.

You may wish, for example, to suggest additional cases to be covered in an Appeals Charter or query existing examples.

(free text)

 

Q11 Do you agree or disagree that the parking industry should contribute towards the cost of the regulation?

Agree/Disagree

 

Q11.1 Please explain your answer.

(free text)

 

YOU CAN INSTEAD GIVE MORE CONCISE ANSWERS ONLINE, USING THE MHCLG PAGE LINK.

Don’t forget that answering these questions is the easier bit…

Looking at the BSI PAS (the draft code of practice itself) involves logging in and submitting comments again, and again and again and takes more time!

There is a discussion about PAS submissions and what the pages look like, here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6195417/am-i-doing-something-wrong/p1