Company vehicle PCN

foxrocks

I am in receipt of a postal PCN from Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd for a company vehicle with several potential drivers. Notice was given on 16/09. The vehicle is owned by the company, not leased. As far as I can tell, their NTK is compliant with POFA Schedule 4, paragraph 9.

With this in mind, what should the basis of an appeal be? I have found plenty of templates where the parking company has not adhered to paragraph 9 (or 13/14 for leased cars), but I'm not sure they are relevant here unless I'm missing something.

nosferatu1001

WEll, appealing on the 3 other points, as per usual. But youve read the newbies threads, so you know plan A, yes?

Redx

Plus see the bottom of the first post in the newbies FAQ sticky thread near the top of the forum , after plan A , because appealing is plan B

It has a full section dealing with lease and hire vehicles , with 3 possible templates depending on the details

Plan C is court , the last resort

Fruitcake

As above, if Plan A doesn't work then use one of the three edna basher hire/lease vehicle templates from the NEWBIES, one of which is for fleet managers.

foxrocks

@nosferatu1001
The 'offence' seemingly took place at a residential property. I have checked the land registry listings but it seems each flat at the complex has a different landlord, so annoyingly it's not clear who is responsible for the car park and therefore who to contact to try and get it cancelled.

@Fruitcake @Redx
Unfortunately I don't believe we can appeal using hire/lease vehicle templates, and non-compliance with paragraphs 13 & 14 of PoFA, as the vehicle is not hired.

Umkomaas

If Plan A doesn't work and the company actually owns and is the RK of the vehicle and the NtK is PoFA compliant and as PCM(UK) are IPC AOS members, and if the company is not prepared to throw an employee under the PPC bus, other than going through the initial appeal motions themselves, it's a question of awaiting any court claim. 

The company needs to be aware that should PCM(UK) sue, any face-to-face hearing could be held on PCM(UK) 'turf'.

Redx

Hired , leased , company vehicle , it matters not a jot , a company cannot be the driver

If a company is the RK , not an individual , you should still follow the Edna basher advice because they do it as part of their daily job in saving their company money from sc#mmers

If an individual is liable as RK , then POFA applies and no driver has been identified because you stated it could be one of many , but you stated that it's a company vehicle so it's a lessee if naming a person as day to day keeper on the day

We can only advise you , tell you what to read , the rest is up to you , but I would be searching this forum for similar cases of company owned vehicles , it's not as if you are the first , not by a long shot

In any case , they will reject any appeal , they always do

Coupon-mad

Unless the company is comfortable to appeal in THEIR name as a legal entity, the lessee appeals that way (BUT ONLY IF THE COMPANY TRANSFER LIABILITY FIRST, USING THE SLIP ON THE PCN). 

A person who is the lessee of the car on a day to day basis is the same as a hirer.  

The company should transfer liability to the lessee if that's what they'd rather do, or appeal as the company.  The point is, NO APPEAL WILL WORK v any IPC firm unless the signage is utter pants.  If the company tries an IAS appeal, they will likely lose but it may be worth a try in case PCM give up.

Remember that whoever is in the firing line is the party who will be sued (unless PCM give up at IAS stage, because only 5% are upheld by the anonymous 'adjudicators'...but some 20% end up uncontested).

But PCM use Gladstones (and we win).  But which party should that be?  Is the company comfortable with defending a claim in court or should they be filling in the transfer of liability slip?  Only they can decide and they CAN'T transfer it just by handing the PCN to a staff member!

foxrocks

From further reading it seems Paragraph 8 is the relevant one here, as apparently a Notice to Driver was initially left on the windscreen.

I've attached the PCN to this post (hopefully). I cannot see any way in which they have not adhered to Paragraph 8 with their NTK, but perhaps I am missing something.

8(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

(b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;

(c)state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph 7(2)(b), (c) and (f);

(d)if the unpaid parking charges specified in that notice to driver as required by paragraph 7(2)(c) have been paid in part, specify the amount that remains unpaid, as at a time which is—

(i)specified in the notice to keeper, and

(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

(f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph (c) or (d)) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

(h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (if it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).

(4)The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.

(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

(7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.

(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and

(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

Coupon-mad

Nothing has changed about my advice so decide who will try to fairly pointless IAS appeal (cross fingers, give LOADs of evidence) and if that's not the company, then the transfer of liability needs to be done first.

The only thing that is missing is 'and pass the notice to the driver' (NB: NOTHING IS A 100% WINNING POINT - IAS IS UNWINNABLE BUT PCM SOMETIMES GIVE UP IN THE FACE OF LOTS OF PHOTOS AND EVIDENCE TO IAS AND LOTS OF REPLIES, PUTTING THE BALL BACK IN THEIR COURT CONTINUALLY, LIKE A  GAME OF 'IAS PING PONG' TILL THEY GET BORED).

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

foxrocks

Thanks. I did personally win an IAS appeal from this very same firm weirdly, although that was a leased car so I had the usual POFA non-compliance to fall back on there.

I will check the company's stance and act accordingly, though I suspect they will prefer to transfer liability to the driver, in which case I'll have to try and figure out who that actually was, and point them in this direction.