Tower road PCN appeal

saunderela

Hi, looking for some help with this appeal I've started for a PCN received for my vehicle. I used the content of an old thread to complete the appeal. 
The only extra piece of information regards this case is that when the driver returned to the vehicle it was obstructed by another vehicle and they had to wait for their return. 
The response from the company is posted below. 

We would like to make you aware that as our car parks are monitored by ANPR cameras, we can confirm that tickets are not issued and displayed on offending vehicles. When a vehicle has is captured parking in breach of  the site terms and conditions, the offending vehicle's registered keeper details are requested from the DVLA, and once received a PCN is issued by letter and sent out via the post.

We wish to inform that the car park in question is operated by ANPR cameras which capture images of your vehicle entering and exiting the site, which subsequently calculates your total stay duration. This information is then paired with the information entered into the payment machine to ensure the correct payment has been made against the full and correct vehicle registration for the total duration the vehicle is on site, which is calculated from entrance to exit.

Xxxx Parking keep any ANPR equipment used in our car parks in good working order. The data we collect is accurate, securely held and cannot be tampered with. The processes used to manage the ANPR system are audited by BPA compliance teams. It is also a condition of the BPA Code of practice that, if we receive and process vehicle or registered keeper data, we must:

• Be registered with the Information Commissioner

• Keep to the Data Protection Act

• Follow the DVLA requirements concerning the data

• Follow the guidelines from the Information Commissioner's Office on the use of CCTV and ANPR cameras, and on keeping and sharing personal data such as vehicle registration marks

We would like to make you aware that we have extended the initial discount period until 02.10.2020, if you wish to make payment, formally appeal, or provide the driver details, please do so by the aforementioned date.

Furthermore, we would like to clarify that as per the BPA code of practice January 2020, paragraph 22.7 "To give drivers early notice of your claim, you should apply to the DVLA for the keeper details promptly. Usually this would be applying to the DVLA no more than 28 days after the unauthorised parking event." And 22.9, "you must post the parking charge notice to the keeper as soon as possible. Your target is to send the parking charge notice to the keeper of the vehicle no more than 14 days after receiving the keeper data from the DVLA.". We can confirm that the contravention occurred on 05.08.2020, the registered keeper's details were provided to us on 28.08.2020, and the PCN was promptly issued. Therefore, this is within the time frames as stipulated by the BPA.

We are unable to provide you with details of the landowner for the site in question. We would argue that the details of the landowner and their contact details, in which you have requested, are that of our client and therefore the personal data pertaining to this would not be provided to a motorist. There is no legal requirement for Smart Parking Limited to provide this information as the data is not your personal data and therefore this information would not be disclosed. 

We have relevant contracts and agreements in place with our clients to act on their behalf in relation to such matters and as such we would not disclose this information as it contains commercially sensitive information and to protect the interests of our client, however we will rely on such agreements to prove our locus standi in any relevant legal proceedings.

The BPA Code of Practice January 2020, paragraph 19.2, states as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. It also states in paragraph 19.3, Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site. There are several signs situated around the car park that advise of the terms and conditions and we can confirm all signage on site is BPA approved. Please be aware all signs are set to a standardised height, regulations and written in clearly and intelligible language; as per the BPA requirements.  There is no ambiguous language or jargon on any of the Smart Parking signs at this site.

Please be advised that there is no amount of time a vehicle can remain in the car park without purchasing a valid ticket. There is sufficient time allowed for drivers to enter the car park, read the Terms and Conditions, and decide whether to purchase a ticket or leave the car park however a valid ticket is required for the duration of a vehicles stay in the car park, calculated from entrance to exit.

The above details are in response to the challenge put to them. Any help on how to progress from here would be appreciated. 
Thanks

Redx

Name the parking company ?? Smart parking ?? I think it's Smart parking !!

Do they know who was driving ? Yes or no ? I think no !!

Is the NTK PCN compliant with POFA ? Yes or no ? I think no !!

Did they provide a Popla code ? Yes or no ? I think no !!

Or are they phishing for driver details ? Yes or no ? I think yes !!!

Tower road ? Where ? Newquay ?

What happened when you followed plan A in the newbies FAQ sticky thread near the top of the forum ??

saunderela

Hi Redx, thanks for your quick response and you would be spot on with all your assumptions and it is tower road Newquay, miles away from us since we were on hols from Scotland. 
I followed the appeal process, went online, submitted my appeal and got an email response in return. The content of which I've pasted above. 
I think I've done the right thing but a tad nervous I've missed something and not sure what to do now. 

Redx

Well , as your vehicle is registered in Scotland then there is no POFA and only the driver is liable !!

Plus if they failed POFA then only the driver is liable down here where POFA may apply !!

They are phishing for the drivers details , so sit on your hands and await a cancellation or a popla code

Do not reply and do not reveal who was driving , but do complain to the landowner using the royal WE , we parked , we visited , we received a PCN , we were blocked in due to circumstances beyond our control , etc

The paid for ticket starts when the button on the PDT machine is pressed to dispense the ticket , so a judge would not agree with some of their observations , plus they would not agree with some of their others either , they have used smoke and mirrors to confuse and obfuscate and are really requiring you to trip up and name the driver , so do not do so

Grace periods also play a part , if you were prevented from leaving , there is a section on that in the BPA CoP , so check what it says for both nations

Wait and see , slowly slowly catchee monkey !!

Umkomaas

since we were on hols from Scotland. 
I followed the appeal process, went online, submitted my appeal and got an email response in return. The content of which I've pasted above. 

Personally, I'd suspend any further action/communication on this (other than the landowner complaint) as there's little that Smart Parking can do to a north of the border RK if the driver's identity is unknown. 

The more you try to unravel this, the more tangled you're likely to become. 

In the jaw-dropping, unlikely event of a court claim being issued via The Sheriff Court, come back for further advice - I'll be eating my leg as I give it to you! 🦵 

Onthewall

Redx said:

Well , as your vehicle is registered in Scotland then there is no POFA and only the driver is liable !!

You're actually wrong with this, as the event occurred in England/Wales PoFA does apply, doesn't matter the vehicle is registered in Scotland. As it was Smart Parking though? they rarely issue under PoFA though, so it can be an easy win. I don't think Scottish courts  recognise PoFA, they cannot rely on it to claim keeper liability.

Coupon-mad

Smart never issue under POFA.

D_P_Dance

Read what Pete Wishart MP said recently in the House of commons about Smart Parking.

"I am sick and tired of receiving emails from people complaining about the behaviour of parking companies, telling me that they will never again visit Perth city centre because of the negative experience they had when they had the misfortune to end up in a car park operated by one of these companies. I have received more complaints about one car park in the city of Perth than about any other issue. That car park is operated by the lone ranger of the parking cowboys: the hated and appalling Smart Parking—I see that many other Members are unfortunate enough to have Smart Parking operating in their constituencies. It has reached the stage where one member of my staff now spends a good part of each day just helping my constituents and visitors to my constituency to navigate the appeals process.

…
The BPA does not have the ability to regulate these companies and has shown no sign whatsoever that it is trying to get on top of some of the sharper practices. The BPA gives a veneer of legitimacy to some of the more outlandish rogue operators by including them in their membership, allowing them to continue to operate. The Bill will oblige operators such as Smart Parking to amend their practices.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the

scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies. 

Onthewall

D_P_Dance said:

Read what Pete Wishart MP said recently in the House of commons about Smart Parking.

"I am sick and tired of receiving emails from people complaining about the behaviour of parking companies, telling me that they will never again visit Perth city centre because of the negative experience they had when they had the misfortune to end up in a car park operated by one of these companies. I have received more complaints about one car park in the city of Perth than about any other issue. That car park is operated by the lone ranger of the parking cowboys: the hated and appalling Smart Parking—I see that many other Members are unfortunate enough to have Smart Parking operating in their constituencies. It has reached the stage where one member of my staff now spends a good part of each day just helping my constituents and visitors to my constituency to navigate the appeals process.

…
The BPA does not have the ability to regulate these companies and has shown no sign whatsoever that it is trying to get on top of some of the sharper practices. The BPA gives a veneer of legitimacy to some of the more outlandish rogue operators by including them in their membership, allowing them to continue to operate. The Bill will oblige operators such as Smart Parking to amend their practices.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the

scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies. 

D_P_Dance said:

Read what Pete Wishart MP said recently in the House of commons about Smart Parking.

"I am sick and tired of receiving emails from people complaining about the behaviour of parking companies, telling me that they will never again visit Perth city centre because of the negative experience they had when they had the misfortune to end up in a car park operated by one of these companies. I have received more complaints about one car park in the city of Perth than about any other issue. That car park is operated by the lone ranger of the parking cowboys: the hated and appalling Smart Parking—I see that many other Members are unfortunate enough to have Smart Parking operating in their constituencies. It has reached the stage where one member of my staff now spends a good part of each day just helping my constituents and visitors to my constituency to navigate the appeals process.

…
The BPA does not have the ability to regulate these companies and has shown no sign whatsoever that it is trying to get on top of some of the sharper practices. The BPA gives a veneer of legitimacy to some of the more outlandish rogue operators by including them in their membership, allowing them to continue to operate. The Bill will oblige operators such as Smart Parking to amend their practices.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the

scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies. 

Spam

saunderela

Thank you all for your advice and feedback. We will be sitting on our hands for the next while. We know the easy answer is to pay the fine but as it's been pointed out numerous times before, all we are doing is feeding these kind of organisations to continue their dispicable business.
Thank you guys for being there to give us support.  

D_P_Dance

If this is spam, please explain why this post has been thanked hundreds of time.  And why have you posted it twice? 

Perhaps it has escaped your notice that the OP is included in that number.