MIELE WASHING MACHINE WARRANTY ISSUE

Harrierjumpjet74

I’ll let Everyone know the outcome once it’s sorted...

floppydisk1

Take 1400 machine for 550 ( I would ). You can fight it but if you consider your costs, time, hassle and possible court case with their insurer ( that can claim that after 8 years of use their offer is more than reasonable - and to be honest they  are quite right ) its not worth it. Look at it this way - you could have bought cheaper machine that would most likely failed by now and you'd have paid already for another one. This way you have very decent machine for price of bog standard one ..... 

Jumblebumble

EssexExile said:

Mine says "If in the opinion of miele an appliance is beyond economical repair, Miele reserves the right at its sole discretion to provide the customer with a new appliance of equivalent specification".

I'd say from that that they owe you a new machine. However, further down it says that if they give you a new machine the guarantee is ended, so new machine without a guarantee. 

Just to confuse Mieles website disagrees with your contract so they may have changed it
If you took section 1  literally  it could be interpreted to mean they might  give you a Beko or a contribution to a Miele or perhaps that is what they mean
https://www.miele.co.uk/c/general-terms-conditions-13.htm#p273,p279

1. If in our opinion an appliance is beyond economic repair, we reserve the right at our sole discretion to provide you with a new appliance of equivalent specification or pay a contribution to a new Miele appliance
   
2. From the appliance delivery date, we grant to you a two-year manufacturer’s guarantee. The extended cover takes effect directly after this manufacturer’s guarantee ends and is valid for a further 3 years or 8 years depending upon the offer.
   
3. If we replace the appliance, the remaining years of the original Guarantee and/or Service Certificate will be transferred to the new appliance. It will stay in place for the other appliances registered under that Miele Service Certificate.

Sandtree

EssexExile said:

Thanks for letting us know that Miele aren't as wonderful as they would like us to think they are.

Miele products are wonderful... their own level of service has diminished somewhat over time.

Harrierjumpjet74 said:
the way I see it is if you give a parts warranty for 10yrs and they are available they should be fitted. She said it’s 6hrs labour at £135 per hour plus the drum and bearings at £650... so then give me a new unit which costs nothing to them job done...

Unfortunately that is how contracts work, the extended warranty or service plan are above and beyond your statutory rights and so they only have to do whatever the contract says they have to do. If the contract wording has clauses about items being beyond economical repair they have no obligations other than to follow those clauses and has already been highlighted in the BER situation its Miele, or their agents, discretion as to what happens.

How do you figure a new washing machine being delivered to your door costs "them" nothing? At a minimum it costs the raw material and labour to build it and the courier charge to bring it to your door. 

Harrierjumpjet74

They have the parts in stock to repair the machine as above, my warranty is 10yrs end of and the parts are in stock.. if they tell me they can’t Warrant the repair bill then they shouldn’t give a 10yr warranty on parts which they have..
Also it took three engineers call outs to determine what I said from the beginning (by the way my job is engineering)...

it cost them minimum amounts of money, the machine they offered was cheaper then the repair bill on the old machine. Which would of been great if it was in stock😂Actually the three they offered were all out of stock..
Anyway it’s all sorted now and to be fair to them I have bought a retail £1400 machine with there discounts for £550 delivered and installed plus the old one taken away.. so happy customer apart from down £550👍

DJMC

Here's the solution for those with the words "Miele reserves the right at its sole discretion..." in their warranty/service certificate T&Cs. Miele cannot use their "discretion" - please read my email to them today, below...

"Dear Mr. Blackford,

Further to our telephone conversation this morning let me summarise the situation:

• We have been Miele customers for over 20 years. We love Miele products, when they work.
• Our current house has 8 Miele appliances, our previous one 11, our next one (we move next week) will have 10.
• We purchased the machine direct from Miele 20/7/2011 after the previous Miele washer caught fire.
• The new machine came with a 10 year warranty contract, agreeing to bear all costs of repair in case of breakdown. Copy attached.

Your technician, Peter, attended yesterday due to a fault. He examined the machine, told us it was beyond economical repair due to main bearing wear, and that it would have to be replaced. We showed him the warranty certificate and he phoned Miele for authorisation. Following his call he explained he'd been told by Sarah in your customer experience team that we would have to pay a 50% contribution toward a new machine. We said the machine needs to be replaced free of charge as it is Miele's decision not to repair it per the warranty.

My wife then phoned Sarah at Miele who immediately quoted paragraph 2.2 of the warranty T&Cs as the reason we had to pay 50%. My wife disagreed and asked to speak to her manager. Sarah quoted your name and you called this morning.

When you and I spoke I agreed to send you the warranty certificate (attached) but also briefly discussed the promise in the warranty to "bear all repair costs" and when you asked if there were any exclusions, read you paragraph 2.2 in full as follows: "2.2 If in our opinion an appliance is beyond economic repair, Miele reserves the right at its sole discretion to provide customers with a new appliance of equivalent specification." You said it was at Miele's "discretion" yesterday to only offer 50% toward a replacement machine. I said you cannot use discretion as it is an unfair contract term.

The words "reserves the right at its sole discretion" are an unfair contract term as they restrict Miele's liability under the warranty contract. Let me explain why they represent an unfair contract term.

The Government's publication "Unfair contract terms explained" can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

Paragraph 25 of the document gives a good explanation and reads: 

"Significant imbalance’ is concerned with the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract. It arises where a term is so weighted in favour of a trader that it tilts the balance of the contract significantly in the trader’s favour – for instance, by granting the business a discretion that could be used unfairly to increase the benefits it enjoys or to impose a disadvantageous burden on the consumer."

Having read this you should be starting to understand what is just common sense anyway. You cannot in a warranty contract promise a remedy, in this case "to provide customers with a new machine of equivalent specification" and then effectively say "but it's entirely up to us whether we do or not." 

The Law referred to here is S.5 of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please have a read, as here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/regulation/5/made

You may also wish to refer to Schedule 2 of the above Act which contains an indicative and non-exhaustive list of the terms which may be regarded as unfair. You'll find several which are similar to the term Miele uses in paragraph 2.2: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/schedule/2/made

We can therefore ignore the unfair words "reserves the right at its sole discretion", or say they have no effect, by applying S.17 of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, as here, please read: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50/section/17/enacted

By removing the unfair wording we have a warranty contract which should read: If in our opinion an appliance is beyond economic repair, Miele will provide customers with a new appliance of equivalent specification.

To allow paragraph 2.2 to stand with its unfair contract wording would be to our detriment and would constitute a breach of contract. The front of the warranty document highlights the words "Peace of Mind from Miele" and so we should not have to argue or be subjected to any inconvenience to obtain a replacement machine at no cost.

In addition to the above, your technician pointed out that because Miele have decided to replace the washing machine it may be necessary to replace the Miele stacking kit attached to its top which allows our Miele tumble dryer to sit on top of the washer. This is because a replacement washer may need a different stacking kit to accomplish the same job. If this is the case, as a direct consequence of your choice to replace the washer, you must also replace the stacking kit at your cost otherwise it will be to our detriment as this necessity would be as a direct result of the failure of the Miele washer.

One more thing. When asked if we could continue to use the washer, albeit not performing as it should, your technician said we could do so. Should its continued use result in any loss, damage, or other detrimental effect on us, our clothing, or our property we hold Miele liable for such occurrences. 

We do hope to be able to continue our lengthy relationship with Miele appliances for the foreseeable future and also that you will accommodate our request for a replacement machine and stacking kit (if needed), at Miele's cost, without further delay.

Please respond via email. Many thanks."

Miele's Customer Experience Manager Jonathan Blackford phoned me back within two hours saying senior management had agreed an equivalent replacement machine (it is) and stacking kit free of charge. Miele are also discussing with their legal advisers the points I make relating to unfair contract terms (i.e. "discretion").

I note their current online warranty uses similarly unfair wording. Hopefully this will change.

For info, our warranty ends 7/21. The machine was purchased 7/11. A ten year warranty. Machine hours 9,200 (max. 10,000 in warranty). 

My lawyers did some research and confirmed warranties are contracts, hence the unfair contracts legislation used. In any case the warranty (service) certificate starts with "During the contract period..." so Miele agree... it's a contract.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives NO statutory rights for a machine over six years old with a ten year warranty - no point in quoting CRA 2015 then, as it doesn't apply. Statutory rights here relate to the warranty contract which is fully in force. For machines under six years old at the time of writing WITH a warranty it may still be easier to refer to any unfair contract terms as I have done.

If you have Legal Expenses Cover under your home insurance, use it if Miele won't play ball. If you don't have it... consider adding it. I would have been happy to go to small claims myself as it's such a clear use of unfair contract terms, but then I've used MCOL many times before.

It was clear from speaking to Miele that the front line staff wish to bat away any claims at little cost to Miele. The manager's first phone call was aggressive. He wanted to deal with the issue, his way, as quickly as possible and not listen to my arguments. This is when it's best to get an email address (note your invoice will say in its T&Cs that any notice by email is invalid) and agreement to email with your argument and any documents.

When he phoned back agreeing the free replacement he was as nice as pie. Apologetic, pleasant, going above and beyond.

I guess the usual burden of denying customers what they want had been lifted when senior management had been jolted into reality by my references to the Law, and so he could, perhaps, revert to the lovely man he probably is when not wearing his Miele hat.

theonlywayisup

DJMC said:

Here's the solution for those with the words "Miele reserves the right at its sole discretion..." in their warranty/service certificate T&Cs. Miele cannot use their "discretion" - please read my email to them today, below...

"Dear Mr. Blackford,

Further to our telephone conversation this morning let me summarise the situation:

• We have been Miele customers for over 20 years. We love Miele products, when they work.
• Our current house has 8 Miele appliances, our previous one 11, our next one (we move next week) will have 10.
• We purchased the machine direct from Miele 20/7/2011 after the previous Miele washer caught fire.
• The new machine came with a 10 year warranty contract, agreeing to bear all costs of repair in case of breakdown. Copy attached.

Your technician, Peter, attended yesterday due to a fault. He examined the machine, told us it was beyond economical repair due to main bearing wear, and that it would have to be replaced. We showed him the warranty certificate and he phoned Miele for authorisation. Following his call he explained he'd been told by Sarah in your customer experience team that we would have to pay a 50% contribution toward a new machine. We said the machine needs to be replaced free of charge as it is Miele's decision not to repair it per the warranty.

My wife then phoned Sarah at Miele who immediately quoted paragraph 2.2 of the warranty T&Cs as the reason we had to pay 50%. My wife disagreed and asked to speak to her manager. Sarah quoted your name and you called this morning.

When you and I spoke I agreed to send you the warranty certificate (attached) but also briefly discussed the promise in the warranty to "bear all repair costs" and when you asked if there were any exclusions, read you paragraph 2.2 in full as follows: "2.2 If in our opinion an appliance is beyond economic repair, Miele reserves the right at its sole discretion to provide customers with a new appliance of equivalent specification." You said it was at Miele's "discretion" yesterday to only offer 50% toward a replacement machine. I said you cannot use discretion as it is an unfair contract term.

The words "reserves the right at its sole discretion" are an unfair contract term as they restrict Miele's liability under the warranty contract. Let me explain why they represent an unfair contract term.

The Government's publication "Unfair contract terms explained" can be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf

Paragraph 25 of the document gives a good explanation and reads: 

"Significant imbalance’ is concerned with the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract. It arises where a term is so weighted in favour of a trader that it tilts the balance of the contract significantly in the trader’s favour – for instance, by granting the business a discretion that could be used unfairly to increase the benefits it enjoys or to impose a disadvantageous burden on the consumer."

Having read this you should be starting to understand what is just common sense anyway. You cannot in a warranty contract promise a remedy, in this case "to provide customers with a new machine of equivalent specification" and then effectively say "but it's entirely up to us whether we do or not." 

The Law referred to here is S.5 of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please have a read, as here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/regulation/5/made

You may also wish to refer to Schedule 2 of the above Act which contains an indicative and non-exhaustive list of the terms which may be regarded as unfair. You'll find several which are similar to the term Miele uses in paragraph 2.2: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/schedule/2/made

We can therefore ignore the unfair words "reserves the right at its sole discretion", or say they have no effect, by applying S.17 of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, as here, please read: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50/section/17/enacted

By removing the unfair wording we have a warranty contract which should read: If in our opinion an appliance is beyond economic repair, Miele will provide customers with a new appliance of equivalent specification.

To allow paragraph 2.2 to stand with its unfair contract wording would be to our detriment and would constitute a breach of contract. The front of the warranty document highlights the words "Peace of Mind from Miele" and so we should not have to argue or be subjected to any inconvenience to obtain a replacement machine at no cost.

In addition to the above, your technician pointed out that because Miele have decided to replace the washing machine it may be necessary to replace the Miele stacking kit attached to its top which allows our Miele tumble dryer to sit on top of the washer. This is because a replacement washer may need a different stacking kit to accomplish the same job. If this is the case, as a direct consequence of your choice to replace the washer, you must also replace the stacking kit at your cost otherwise it will be to our detriment as this necessity would be as a direct result of the failure of the Miele washer.

One more thing. When asked if we could continue to use the washer, albeit not performing as it should, your technician said we could do so. Should its continued use result in any loss, damage, or other detrimental effect on us, our clothing, or our property we hold Miele liable for such occurrences. 

We do hope to be able to continue our lengthy relationship with Miele appliances for the foreseeable future and also that you will accommodate our request for a replacement machine and stacking kit (if needed), at Miele's cost, without further delay.

Please respond via email. Many thanks."

Miele's Customer Experience Manager Jonathan Blackford phoned me back within two hours saying senior management had agreed an equivalent replacement machine (it is) and stacking kit free of charge. Miele are also discussing with their legal advisers the points I make relating to unfair contract terms (i.e. "discretion").

I note their current online warranty uses similarly unfair wording. Hopefully this will change.

For info, our warranty ends 7/21. The machine was purchased 7/11. A ten year warranty. Machine hours 9,200 (max. 10,000 in warranty). 

My lawyers did some research and confirmed warranties are contracts, hence the unfair contracts legislation used. In any case the warranty (service) certificate starts with "During the contract period..." so Miele agree... it's a contract.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives NO statutory rights for a machine over six years old with a ten year warranty - no point in quoting CRA 2015 then, as it doesn't apply. Statutory rights here relate to the warranty contract which is fully in force. For machines under six years old at the time of writing WITH a warranty it may still be easier to refer to any unfair contract terms as I have done.

If you have Legal Expenses Cover under your home insurance, use it if Miele won't play ball. If you don't have it... consider adding it. I would have been happy to go to small claims myself as it's such a clear use of unfair contract terms, but then I've used MCOL many times before.

It was clear from speaking to Miele that the front line staff wish to bat away any claims at little cost to Miele. The manager's first phone call was aggressive. He wanted to deal with the issue, his way, as quickly as possible and not listen to my arguments. This is when it's best to get an email address (note your invoice will say in its T&Cs that any notice by email is invalid) and agreement to email with your argument and any documents.

When he phoned back agreeing the free replacement he was as nice as pie. Apologetic, pleasant, going above and beyond.

I guess the usual burden of denying customers what they want had been lifted when senior management had been jolted into reality by my references to the Law, and so he could, perhaps, revert to the lovely man he probably is when not wearing his Miele hat.

The thread you posted on was from September 2020.   I did not read your post (way too long) but you may want to consider your own post perhaps. 

greyteam1959

I didn't read the post either.
I thought the OP was writing a book.

DJMC

Those who scoff perhaps haven't been faced with Miele saying they have to pay a contribution when their machine goes wrong under warranty.

Those who need to know the way to pay nothing will read it all.

Al_Ross

DJMC said:

Those who scoff perhaps haven't been faced with Miele saying they have to pay a contribution when their machine goes wrong under warranty.

Those who need to know the way to pay nothing will read it all.

Well done and a good read.