Paid furlough wages but made to work

calcotti

macman said:

He could of course quite legally 'volunteer' to 'help his boss with some work on his house' without pay. Which I'm sure is the way his boss would explain it if he was reported. 

Fairly sure that volunteering is also against the furlough rules.

Jeremy535897

Per my previous post, you cannot work (or volunteer) for someone connected to your employer, paid or otherwise, while furloughed. The guidance is clear as well:

"When your employees are on furlough

During hours which you record your employee as being on furlough, you cannot ask them to do any work for you that:

• makes money for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation
• provides services for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation

Your employee can:

• take part in training
• volunteer for another employer or organisation
• work for another employer (if contractually allowed)"

adamp87

Jeremy535897 said:

Per my previous post, you cannot work (or volunteer) for someone connected to your employer, paid or otherwise, while furloughed. The guidance is clear as well:

"When your employees are on furlough

During hours which you record your employee as being on furlough, you cannot ask them to do any work for you that:

• makes money for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation
• provides services for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation

Your employee can:

• take part in training
• volunteer for another employer or organisation
• work for another employer (if contractually allowed)"

Isn’t that just organisations though?

Volunteering to work for his boss to work on his house is different isn’t it? It’s not an organisation it’s a person.

There has to have been a conversation at some point here

’Furloughed still but I need you to work on my
house if that’s alright?’ Or something to that effect?

Grumpy_chap

Except the boss, as an entity, is linked to the company, as an entity.

The rules don't affect that there is probably little at a practical level the employee can do.

Jeremy535897

adamp87 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

Per my previous post, you cannot work (or volunteer) for someone connected to your employer, paid or otherwise, while furloughed. The guidance is clear as well:

"When your employees are on furlough

During hours which you record your employee as being on furlough, you cannot ask them to do any work for you that:

• makes money for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation
• provides services for your organisation or any organisation linked or associated with your organisation

Your employee can:

• take part in training
• volunteer for another employer or organisation
• work for another employer (if contractually allowed)"

Isn’t that just organisations though?

Volunteering to work for his boss to work on his house is different isn’t it? It’s not an organisation it’s a person.

There has to have been a conversation at some point here

’Furloughed still but I need you to work on my
house if that’s alright?’ Or something to that effect?

If you read my previous post, you will see the legislation states that an employee on furlough cannot work for the employer or someone (in this case the boss) connected to the employer. "Organisation" is just in the guidance, and the legislation takes precedence over the guidance.

The legislation is silent on volunteering, because it stops anyone working, which includes volunteering, for their employer or someone connected to the employer. This is an issue for charities, churches etc where employees also routinely do unpaid work for their employer. The guidance states that volunteering can only be for a separate employer/organisation (as can any work). By definition, as the boss is not an organisation, and is not separate, this permissive statement does not apply.

68ComebackSpecial

As it's a Ltd company the boss is also laying himself open to a sizeable personal tax bill for the labour supplied for his personal benefit. Years ago a client got stung by HMRC for just this - company labour used to construct his swimming pool. Investigation was triggered when they saw pictures of the director in the Daily Mail next to the new pool and realised he couldn't have afforded it based on the low salary declared. 

Jeremy535897

68ComebackSpecial said:

As it's a Ltd company the boss is also laying himself open to a sizeable personal tax bill for the labour supplied for his personal benefit. Years ago a client got stung by HMRC for just this - company labour used to construct his swimming pool. Investigation was triggered when they saw pictures of the director in the Daily Mail next to the new pool and realised he couldn't have afforded it based on the low salary declared. 

It is an interesting question. When this happens in normal times, it is clearly personal benefit: the company pays the employees to work, and the work they do is for the director. However, where the government pays the workers to stay at home, and they volunteer to work on the director's property instead, there is not the same direct link. As I have explained above, however, the CJRS claim is invalid, so there is a cost to the company, unless they can claw back the amount paid under the furlough agreement (many furlough agreements require an employee to reimburse the company for a failed CJRS claim, even if it is not the employee's fault). I think the true nature of the "volunteering" would then come to light, if the employees realised they were doing up their boss's house for free, instead of sitting at home on 80%!