RM lost will etc...and now I've lost the will to live.

dchurch24

Hi all,
My uncle sadly passed about 4 months ago. We found his will, which despite a spelling mistake in my sister's surname, left everything to my sister and I exclusively (aside from musical instruments, which were left solely to me as the only other musician in the family).
We filled in the PA1P form online after completing the Inland Revenue IHT form (estate is under the threshold, both gross and, of course, net), and my sister took the will and other supporting docs to the post office, where they advised her to send it "tracked" - which she did.
We kept checking the tracking number and eventually it was decided, and agreed by the RM, that the will had been lost. We contacted the probate office to make sure (after an hour in a queue). They said they would look into it. A week later, I got an email saying they had looked on the RM website and we should contact them etc...
We then phoned again a week later and asked what the next step was. We were told to compete the "lost will questionnaire" which we have. We had a copy of the will (unsigned) and a video of the signed will showing that it was still bound etc...
We sent this to the probate office, and I followed it up 2 weeks later with a phone call. The lady on the phone conceded that they had received it (as she could see on the RM website that it had been signed for, as could I), and then told me to phone back 2 weeks later to make sure it had been "added" to our case.
Those 2 weeks were up today.

Last night, I received an email stating that because "we have lost the will" (*we* haven't, the RM has) that our application is not eligible for the electronic service, and we have to complete the PA1P on paper and send it to Manchester with our "documents" (we no longer have any documents, as we sent them to the probate office - twice now).
I've tried to contact a few solicitors to take this on this morning, and so far, the ones that have bothered to phone back when they said they would, have all said that because we've applied already that they are not prepared to take it on.
I've lost the will to live, and no longer care what happens. The problem is, that I think I'm eligible for the interest on a secured loan on my uncle's house, and the council tax as well. The estate agent told us to put the house on the market to run alongside our probate application. The house sold in 4 hours. This is now the 4th month after applying for probate, and the process hasn't even been started.
I wrote to my MP requesting guidance, and was told in no uncertain terms that I "should have used a solicitor from the start".
I'm at my wits end, and have no clue what to do, or where to turn next.
I can't phone the probate office again, as I am now back working in the office full time and the last time I tried to call, I was in a queue for 2 hours and 19 minutes before I gave up. I don't get a lunch break that long.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

naedanger

Have you seen this thread, it may offer some suggestions:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6183945/original-will-missing-at-harlow-probate-office/p1

xylophone

"should have used a solicitor from the start".

There is no requirement on anybody to "use a solicitor from the start" and your problems do not arise from not having used a solicitor!

We then phoned again a week later and asked what the next step was. We were told to compete the "lost will questionnaire" which we have. We had a copy of the will (unsigned) and a video of the signed will showing that it was still bound etc...
We sent this to the probate office, and I followed it up 2 weeks later with a phone call. The lady on the phone conceded that they had received it (as she could see on the RM website that it had been signed for, as could I), and then told me to phone back 2 weeks later to make sure it had been "added" to our case.
Those 2 weeks were up today.

 The email you have received could be "out of sync" with the actual state of your case.

It seems to me that you  do need to speak to the probate office holding your documents, regardless of the wait on the telephone.  

I appreciate that you are back in the office but in the circumstances, would your employer permit you to take an extended lunch break?

Or could you phone as early as possible in the morning and arrange to go into work as soon as you could?

If the above is not possible, then I think that you  may have to send the PA!P to Manchester ( by special delivery) with a  supporting letter explaining the sequence of events and  that the only remaining documentation is currently with XYZ probate registry (signed for as received there on  x date).

The problem is, that I think I'm eligible for the interest on a secured loan on my uncle's house, and the council tax as well. 

With regard to the loan, this is not your liability - it is a liability of the estate.

You should advise the creditor of your uncle's death (a copy of the death certificate may be required) and that his estate is currently subject to an application for probate.

You should advise the council of your uncle's death - as I understand it there is  an exemption period in these circumstances - check the council's website. 

Have you advised all other interested parties of your uncle's demise and contacted the insurers of the property?

I'm at my wits end,

This is unsurprising and I am sure that you have the sympathy of other posters.

Try the above suggestions and come back to tell us how you got on?

dchurch24

Hi,
Thank you for the detailed response, truly appreciated.

>> There is no requirement on anybody to "use a solicitor from the start" and your problems do not arise from not having used a solicitor!
Absolutely! I was appalled by the response from my useless MP, although, my sister and I discussed it this morning and are now using a fixed-fee solicitor/probate firm (the only one that actually phoned back), as we decided that our blood pressure/hearts simply can't take much more.
They are going to start the process again from scratch, which means me paying the probate fee, yet again(!), under the laws of intestacy, as my sister and I would be the natural benefactors even without a will.

>> I appreciate that you are back in the office but in the circumstances, would your employer permit you to take an extended lunch break?

Yes, but my experience so far with them [probate office] is that they will simply say whatever they need to get you off the phone as fast as possible which makes sitting in a queue, literally, for hours all the more frustrating. When you do get through to someone who doesn't speak to you like you're in some South London Gang (I had the first chap, say "Yo, blud we git dis dun!" [followed by incomprehensible rubbish] when I phoned), they don't appear to have much knowledge of the process. Of the 4-5 times myself and/or my sister have phoned them, we've come away more confused, and certainly more frustrated. Each time so far, what we've been told, is shortly contradicted by email ("We have your documents", "We don't have your documents", "The new documents will be attached to your application", "You have to start the application again on paper", etc...)

>> With regard to the loan, this is not your liability - it is a liability of the estate.
Indeed...but that is effectively inheritance being eaten up because of royal mail/probate office incompetence.

>> You should advise the creditor of your uncle's death (a copy of the death certificate may be required) and that his estate is currently subject to an application for probate.
Already done. Interest doesn't stop, and they will start repossession after 12 months. We're nearly 5 months in and the process hasn't started yet.

>>You should advise the council of your uncle's death - as I understand it there is  an exemption period in these circumstances - check the council's website. 
Already done. The exemption period is 6 months. We're now in month 5.

>> Have you advised all other interested parties of your uncle's demise and contacted the insurers of the property?
All done. Property is insured, empty and uninhabited. Pension company notified etc... all stones have been unturned.

Thank you for your time.

We've decided to start again and pay someone else to take the stress of dealing with incompetent, useless government/privatised institutions away from us. If we lose the sale of his property over it, then so be it.

poppystar

I know it isn’t much help but I eventually found that I could get through to the helpline if I dialled at 9.01am. It was just a short hold at that time. Would your work allow that one day?

I truly understand your exasperation. In my case the lost Will was the fault of the solicitor but I found that trying to find out exactly what to do was hard. I emailed Probate as couldn’t get through, then using the strategy above I got through and was told to fill in the questionnaire and send with PA1P  to Harlow (which is what gov.uk appears to say). I did this then got a very belated reply, just before I sent stuff off, to my email saying I needed to fill in a PA1A and send to Manchester. Really this should not be a best of three situation!! 

Im sorry you had that reaction from your MP too. That is just not on, you have every right to apply yourself without a solicitor. The one thing the guy on the helpline did say was that they are there to help people do exactly that.

.....although conflicting information and losing documents isn’t exactly helping. Hang on in there. 

dchurch24

Thank you. It truly is the most frustrating thing I've ever had to deal with. It's ridiculous, and could be some much easier.
We've now gone to a fixed fee probate firm. I simply can't deal with the stress of this any longer. I've already got far too much else to do.
I am not a fan of "officialdom" in any case, and tend to shy away from any government institution for this very reason - I've read Kafka, and I know how this ends
...and yet, since the passing of my uncle, I appear to be drowning in it.
Once case in point is the water company(s). We informed them of my uncle's passing, and then promptly received a bill for 1700 quid (Each). Phoned them, and apparently there's a leak.
I turned the water off for 20 minutes, took photos of the meter to prove it hadn't moved a micron and sent it to them.
Suddenly, the bill was "wiped". Funny that.

poppystar

That’s probably a sensible decision for the sake of sanity! It was all so much easier when I did my mother’s as it was possible to take the documents to reception at the local probate office and get them checked as complete (good, as despite several checks one of us had managed to miss the death certificate out!) and get a receipt. This time round has been a frustrating shock to the system that seems to have occupied all available hours without getting very far. 

I didn’t want to go down the intestate route although the outcome would have been the same as that in the Will. In my case, however, the lost final Will was written to exclude someone who would have got a bequest under the previous Will but who wouldn’t under intestacy. Given they almost certainly have a copy of the previous Will I needed to prove the final one existed and I hadn’t just conveniently ‘lost’ it.

The water company here were the really good ones.. but a certain broadband company got the prize for worst dealings, followed closely by the bank although they coughed up compensation very quickly!

dchurch24

poppystar said:

I didn’t want to go down the intestate route although the outcome would have been the same as that in the Will. In my case, however, the lost final Will was written to exclude someone who would have got a bequest under the previous Will but who wouldn’t under intestacy.

Ah...fair enough.
In our case, my sister and I were the only benefactors. There was a slight issue with my sister's name being slightly incorrect (but was named as "niece" in the will, and she was his sole niece, so there was no risk of this being anyone else). 
The will was very straight forward, and aside from all musical equipment being left to me alone (being the only other musician in the family left), and the rest being split between us, it's what ordinarily would have happened under intestacy laws in any case. 
It just means that we've had our time wasted for a few months, and incurred interest on the estate debts that we otherwise wouldn't have. Hopefully, this will be done by the time we become eligible for council tax on the property, as it's a band E, and we live in one of the most expensive council tax areas.

xylophone

In our case, my sister and I were the only benefactors. 

Beneficiaries - important to get this right! 

Already done. The exemption period is 6 months. We're now in month 5.

It would be worth contacting the council and explaining what has happened. A grace period might be allowed in the circumstances.

dchurch24

xylophone said:

In our case, my sister and I were the only benefactors. 

Beneficiaries - important to get this right! 

Already done. The exemption period is 6 months. We're now in month 5.

It would be worth contacting the council and explaining what has happened. A grace period might be allowed in the circumstances.

Hmm...that would mean being stuck in a queue and then talking to the revenues office at our local council. The same local council that took me to court for not paying a council tax bill of £0.00.
Contacting them would probably end up with them reclassifying the property as a Band Q or something, then charging me 10 grand a month.
I don't have the emotional energy to deal with yet another incompetent government, agency/institution, especially not our council. There's not enough brick walls available in the county for me to bang my head against.
It'd be futile in any case. It's a Tory council, if they see pound signs, they'd crawl naked across broken glass to get to them.

Flugelhorn

don't worry re name spelling, my parents and their solicitor (Uncle  ) managed to spell my middle name wrong in the wills  - didn't cause any problem.