Tenancy agreement was coming to an end but then we exchanged some messages

randomhuman

GraceD_17 said:

https://www.lettingaproperty.com/landlord/blog/is-a-tenancy-agreement-legally-binding-if-it-is-not-in-writing/#:~:text=The%20simple%20answer%20is%20%E2%80%9Cyes,advise%20you%20enter%20into%20one.

We are often asked this question by our landlords, “Do I really need a written tenancy agreement, as I know the tenants personally, could I not just agree it verbally?”

In order for a verbal tenancy agreement to exist it must have three essential elements;

• an offer
• an acceptance of the offer
• some payment – known as the legal term consideration

If these three elements exist then a verbal tenancy agreement can be created.  This contract is binding on all parties involved.'

I'd simply send this link to your landlord. This information may not be up to date, I have no idea, but with the way he is acting, sending him that could just scare him into leaving the situation alone. 

Thank you but I have decided against sending him any more messages, as I find the situation stressful and I do not think he has any understanding of the matter. He can dispute it with DPS and I will accept whatever the outcome is, although I think it will turn out in my favour. 

I have had previous tenancy agreements with absolutely no issues at all and this has been my first horrible experience. I have learned a lot from this experience in terms of what my rights are and what landlords are liable for. He doesn't seem to have a clue.

randomhuman

Fi433322 said:

There's no requirement to give notice at the end of a fixed term, you have now told him out of courtesy you are moving at the end of the fixed term.  At worst most landlords would be a bit annoyed for a minute as they have to remarket the property.  But you could have refused to let new prospective tenants view the flat before you moved out, in which case he would be in the same position he is now.  Just move out on the last date of your tenancy and make sure you follow any procedure in the contract with regards to checking out/returning the keys.  I would be amazed if he a) bothered to file a claim, and b) won a claim against you on the basis of those text messages, they're very vague.  Also how could he prove you were the one sending them? 

That is exactly what I am going to do, I am 95% sure my deposit will be returned.

I suppose he could prove I am the one sending the text messages due to the fact that we have had other conversations about the property in the past.

I would also like to add that he is not the landlord, his wife is and she is the only one on the tenancy agreement.
Also, this number is not the contact number stated in the tenancy agreement or any of the documents provided.

Fi433322

Good luck with it all.  He does seems like the type of landlord who will be difficult over returning the deposit.  In addition to not communicating through text message with him, I'd address any future correspondance to his wife via snail mail sent recorded delivery.

DoaM

If the "LL" wanted to take the OP to court, where would they serve the claim? If the OP has moved out (and the "LL" knows this) then they can't serve the claim to the rental address (unless they file and serve before 10-Sep). And the OP isn't under any obligation to notify the "LL" of their new address.

randomhuman

DoaM said:

If the "LL" wanted to take the OP to court, where would they serve the claim? If the OP has moved out (and the "LL" knows this) then they can't serve the claim to the rental address (unless they file and serve before 10-Sep). And the OP isn't under any obligation to notify the "LL" of their new address.

What about claiming that amount out of my deposit?

getmore4less

The text messages are not to the landlord. 

Would they not need evidence POA to act on behalf of the landlord.?

greatcrested

GraceD_17 said:

https://www.lettingaproperty.com/landlord/blog/is-a-tenancy-agreement-legally-binding-if-it-is-not-in-writing/#:~:text=The%20simple%20answer%20is%20%E2%80%9Cyes,advise%20you%20enter%20into%20one.

We are often asked this question by our landlords, “Do I really need a written tenancy agreement, as I know the tenants personally, could I not just agree it verbally?”

In order for a verbal tenancy agreement to exist it must have three essential elements;

• an offer
• an acceptance of the offer
• some payment – known as the legal term consideration

If these three elements exist then a verbal tenancy agreement can be created.  This contract is binding on all parties involved.'

I'd simply send this link to your landlord. This information may not be up to date, I have no idea, but with the way he is acting, sending him that could just scare him into leaving the situation alone. 

Indeed. And all 3 elements exist here.

The offer and acceptance must be clearly understood, and must include 'consideration', but that consideration can be for payment at a later date. So a contract can be made today, for a tenancy to start next week/month, at which point rent will be paid (the consideration).

Looking at the wording in the early part of that text exchange, it seems clear to me that the OP requested 12 more months (offer to pay rent for 12 months in return for ongoing accomodation), and the landlord agreed to this (acceptance). The consideration was the agreed continuation of payment of the same rent.

The lack of signed tenancy agreement is legally irrelevant as an understanding had been reached. A written TA had one been signed later would simply over-ride the oral agreement by confirming the terms agreed and adding in whatever additional clauses were contained within the written TA.

In the later part of the exchange, the OP suddenly changed his mind, after the agreement was reached.

This raises several points

* if upheld, what is the OP liable for? Answer: 12 months rent as per the agreed contract. But the LL has generously agreed to 15 days rent instead.

* would a deposit scheme arbitrator, who is not a legal expert, uphold the conclusion above? Dubious and uncertain.

* would a judge,if it went to court, uphold the conclusion above? More likely, but still uncertain.

Regarding the fact that the texts were from the LL's wife not the LL, it seems likely she was acting as his agent in this matter, and from the texts it is also clear that the OP knew and accepted this.

Fi433322

@greatcrested the man exchanging the text messages with the OP isn't even the landlord.  The OP's tenancy agreement is with his wife.  Even if he were the landlord, I would imagine a judge would take a dim view of him refusing to clarify the 'arrangement' with a new tenancy agreement signed by both parties after the request was made by the tenant.  Of course if he'd hd any sense about him, that's what he would have done to avoid this situation happening.  Of course it's not 100% certain the judge would side with the OP, but they have an extremely strong case imo. 

steampowered

Obviously, there was no agreement reached in this case. 

A text message asking "to try and find out if you'd want to rent to us for another 12 months" and another saying "are you willing to sign a tenancy agreement" is clearly not an agreement to extend for 12 months. It is simply inquiring as to whether an extension might be possible and I cannot see any judge in the land reading it differently.

The landlord is taking the proverbial. Just leave the property on the tenancy end date, hand back the keys and immediately submit a claim for your deposit.

If you wanted you could start court proceedings seeking a penalty of 1x the deposit amount for not protecting the deposit (which the court would be obliged to reward - no discretion there), in addition to damages for the landlord's other breaches of the tenancy agreement. But you may decide that's not worth the hassle once you've got your deposit back.

randomhuman

greatcrested said:

GraceD_17 said:

https://www.lettingaproperty.com/landlord/blog/is-a-tenancy-agreement-legally-binding-if-it-is-not-in-writing/#:~:text=The%20simple%20answer%20is%20%E2%80%9Cyes,advise%20you%20enter%20into%20one.

We are often asked this question by our landlords, “Do I really need a written tenancy agreement, as I know the tenants personally, could I not just agree it verbally?”

In order for a verbal tenancy agreement to exist it must have three essential elements;

• an offer
• an acceptance of the offer
• some payment – known as the legal term consideration

If these three elements exist then a verbal tenancy agreement can be created.  This contract is binding on all parties involved.'

I'd simply send this link to your landlord. This information may not be up to date, I have no idea, but with the way he is acting, sending him that could just scare him into leaving the situation alone. 

Indeed. And all 3 elements exist here.

The offer and acceptance must be clearly understood, and must include 'consideration', but that consideration can be for payment at a later date. So a contract can be made today, for a tenancy to start next week/month, at which point rent will be paid (the consideration).

Looking at the wording in the early part of that text exchange, it seems clear to me that the OP requested 12 more months (offer to pay rent for 12 months in return for ongoing accomodation), and the landlord agreed to this (acceptance). The consideration was the agreed continuation of payment of the same rent.

The lack of signed tenancy agreement is legally irrelevant as an understanding had been reached. A written TA had one been signed later would simply over-ride the oral agreement by confirming the terms agreed and adding in whatever additional clauses were contained within the written TA.

In the later part of the exchange, the OP suddenly changed his mind, after the agreement was reached.

This raises several points

* if upheld, what is the OP liable for? Answer: 12 months rent as per the agreed contract. But the LL has generously agreed to 15 days rent instead.

* would a deposit scheme arbitrator, who is not a legal expert, uphold the conclusion above? Dubious and uncertain.

* would a judge,if it went to court, uphold the conclusion above? More likely, but still uncertain.

Regarding the fact that the texts were from the LL's wife not the LL, it seems likely she was acting as his agent in this matter, and from the texts it is also clear that the OP knew and accepted this.

I am not sure I agree with you. I chose my wording carefully and I was asking whether that would be a possibility, as I was still looking for a place. The reply I got was that 'this is final', however I never agreed to it.

I also mentioned a contract because last year they didn't want to sign a contract and it took 2 months to get them to sign it. He wanted to rent to me on the basis of a verbal agreement which I wasn't happy with and I proceed to view new places, which then convinced him to sign the contract. That is why I mentioned the contact, simply due to the difficulty I have had in the past.