We are missing our original Leasehold document!

charlottexc

I’m current Selling my Leasehold flat, we are literally at the point of exchanging  but the buyers solicitor is asking for our original leasehold from 1983 for the buyers mortgage company. I have exhausted every person I can land registry, previous solicitor dating all the way back to the people who originally extended the lease, mortgage company and the freeholders it’s no where to be found. 

The only document the land registry have is our lease extension which shows ownership and how long is left on the lease but apparently this is not sufficient enough. We have only had the property for 2 years so how was we able to purchase it without the original lease but not be able to sell now ? 

We are really struggling with this an our solicitor has not come up with much to help in fact it seems like she has been delaying it further. 

She has mentioned a indemnity policy but I know that buyers don’t have to accept that, I’ve stormed the internet to see if we can get a new lease draw up by using one of the neighbours original lease that was taken out the same time as ours but I have no idea how to go about this ? 

AdrianC

"Sorry, we don't have it. We've never had it. Are you sure the lender really needs it?"

You already have your current lease - it's what's registered at the Land Registry. That's the one that's in force now. That's the one that carries the legal weight behind it. It supercedes the previous one.

No, you can't "draw up" a 40yo lost original by copying a neighbour's but changing the address...

charlottexc

AdrianC said:

"Sorry, we don't have it. We've never had it. Are you sure the lender really needs it?"

You already have your current lease - it's what's registered at the Land Registry. That's the one that's in force now. That's the one that carries the legal weight behind it. It supercedes the previous one.

No, you can't "draw up" a 40yo lost original by copying a neighbour's but changing the address...

By draw I mean is there a way just get a new lease document made up with the freeholder based on other flats leases ? 

The buyers lender wants to see the original lease under there terms and conditions which I know sounds ridiculous being as we have the extension copy As we never had this issue when buying the property 

another issue is there are three enquires that are not life changing that the old lease would answer an my solicitor is stuck on finding the lease that no longer exists

AdrianC

charlottexc said:

AdrianC said:

"Sorry, we don't have it. We've never had it. Are you sure the lender really needs it?"

You already have your current lease - it's what's registered at the Land Registry. That's the one that's in force now. That's the one that carries the legal weight behind it. It supercedes the previous one.

No, you can't "draw up" a 40yo lost original by copying a neighbour's but changing the address...

By draw I mean is there a way just get a new lease document made up with the freeholder based on other flats leases ?

Of course.
But it won't be "an original". It'll be another new lease, like the one you've already got.

The buyers lender wants to see the original lease under there terms and conditions which I know sounds ridiculous being as we have the extension copy As we never had this issue when buying the property

Your current lease (which will be a replacement, not simply an extension) IS the only valid lease. The other is an interesting historical document, no more.

If the freeholder doesn't have a copy of it, either, then it's totally unenforceable... because who can produce it in court and say "But it's been breached"?

another issue is there are three enquires that are not life changing that the old lease would answer an my solicitor is stuck on finding the lease that no longer exists

If they aren't in the current lease, they don't apply.

bouicca21

My extension does not include the terms of the original lease so both have to be read together.  Are you using the same solicitor to sell as you did to buy?  The one you used to buy should still have documentation.

I was in a similar position to your buyer when I bought my flat so I know it  is possible for an agreement to be made to recreate a new lease in the terms of the old one, assuming that all the leases on your block are identical. Arrangements can be built into the sale, but my vendor had to agree to pay the legal fees on both sides, which 6 years ago amounted to £3000.  Whether  your buyer’s mortgage lender will accept such an arrangement is another matter.  In hindsight I should have gazundered him.

loubel

Do you mean you don't have the original, signed, paper copy of the 1983 lease? (not ideal but not the end of the world) or that no copy of the original lease is held by anyone (much more of an issue but seems unlikely given you only bought 2 years ago)?

charlottexc

loubel said:

Do you mean you don't have the original, signed, paper copy of the 1983 lease? (not ideal but not the end of the world) or that no copy of the original lease is held by anyone (much more of an issue but seems unlikely given you only bought 2 years ago)?

We never received the original lease when we brought 2 years ago as the extension was deme sufficient. bouicca21 said:

My extension does not include the terms of the original lease so both have to be read together.  Are you using the same solicitor to sell as you did to buy?  The one you used to buy should still have documentation.

I was in a similar position to your buyer when I bought my flat so I know it  is possible for an agreement to be made to recreate a new lease in the terms of the old one, assuming that all the leases on your block are identical. Arrangements can be built into the sale, but my vendor had to agree to pay the legal fees on both sides, which 6 years ago amounted to £3000.  Whether  your buyer’s mortgage lender will accept such an arrangement is another matter.  In hindsight I should have gazundered him.

I have contacted our previous solicitor she said they did request it an we’re told that the title number was closed as the lease does not exist anymore. Do they just went by extension an our extension is the same it does not include any clauses or details. 

AdrianC said:

charlottexc said:

AdrianC said:

"Sorry, we don't have it. We've never had it. Are you sure the lender really needs it?"

You already have your current lease - it's what's registered at the Land Registry. That's the one that's in force now. That's the one that carries the legal weight behind it. It supercedes the previous one.

No, you can't "draw up" a 40yo lost original by copying a neighbour's but changing the address...

By draw I mean is there a way just get a new lease document made up with the freeholder based on other flats leases ?

Of course.
But it won't be "an original". It'll be another new lease, like the one you've already got.

The buyers lender wants to see the original lease under there terms and conditions which I know sounds ridiculous being as we have the extension copy As we never had this issue when buying the property

Your current lease (which will be a replacement, not simply an extension) IS the only valid lease. The other is an interesting historical document, no more.

If the freeholder doesn't have a copy of it, either, then it's totally unenforceable... because who can produce it in court and say "But it's been breached"?

another issue is there are three enquires that are not life changing that the old lease would answer an my solicitor is stuck on finding the lease that no longer exists

If they aren't in the current lease, they don't apply.

The land registry did hold it at one point but don’t any longer so does this mean our buyers 

So does this mean our buyers solicitor and my solicitor are just beating a dead horse over this an should of just taken out indemnity for any reassurance on buyers side An mortgage lender? 

lfc321

If the freeholders don't have a copy, then they will never be able to enforce whatever conditions were in it anyway.
Sounds like your solicitor's suggestion of an indemnity is the only way to go.

bouicca21

lfc321 said:

If the freeholders don't have a copy, then they will never be able to enforce whatever conditions were in it anyway.
Sounds like your solicitor's suggestion of an indemnity is the only way to go.

But the new owner will not be able to enforce conditions either - without the lease neither side can know what their obligations and responsibilities are.  My solicitor would not let me buy without a cast iron guarantee that the lease would be recreated and I find it odd that OP was able to buy without a lease. 

GDB2222

If the lease extension does not have any details in it, you may have a real problem and maybe need to sue the solicitor who advised on the purchase. The lease will, for example, entitle you to use the common parts of the block. Without that, you could in theory be unable to access your flat. It may be a blessing in disguise that the issue has arisen now rather than years in the future. 

charlottexc

lfc321 said:

If the freeholders don't have a copy, then they will never be able to enforce whatever conditions were in it anyway.
Sounds like your solicitor's suggestion of an indemnity is the only way to go.

The freeholders hold one original for flat 7 which they use to manage the grounds 

GDB2222 said:

If the lease extension does not have any details in it, you may have a real problem and maybe need to sue the solicitor who advised on the purchase. The lease will, for example, entitle you to use the common parts of the block. Without that, you could in theory be unable to access your flat. It may be a blessing in disguise that the issue has arisen now rather than years in the future. 

bouicca21 said:

lfc321 said:

If the freeholders don't have a copy, then they will never be able to enforce whatever conditions were in it anyway.
Sounds like your solicitor's suggestion of an indemnity is the only way to go.

But the new owner will not be able to enforce conditions either - without the lease neither side can know what their obligations and responsibilities are.  My solicitor would not let me buy without a cast iron guarantee that the lease would be recreated and I find it odd that OP was able to buy without a lease. 

We do hold the title register and the flat grounds handbook which is stated everything that was in the original lease but I know this is not an legal document but surely the title register information can be used to a certain point ?