Is a holiday booked with on the beach a package holiday?

Butts

Upsidedownandaround said:

Butts said:

macman said:

Refer to your ATOL certificate, that will tell you if it is a package or not. But, if all under the same booking ref incl. the flights, then it probably is.
But no, you are not entitled to any refund, as both the accom and flights are available, and you are free to travel, subject to quarantine upon your return. FCO advice is just that-advisory.
Your best bet is to sit tight and hope that Ryanair cancel the flights. If they do, and it is a package, then you can claim a full refund from OTB.

So you disagree with the Package and Linked Travel Regulations 2018 and the Recent ABTA statement both of which say exactly the opposite ?

The holiday is still over a month away. As it stands he clearly is not entitled to a refund as Macman says. The Package and Linked Travel Arrangements 2018 and ABTA statements do not say anything about being entitled to a refund because FCO advice over a month in advance of your holiday advises you not to travel. The idea that a chargeback would be successfull a month before he is due to go on holiday is fanciful at best.

I dropped a clanger with the date sorry.....didn't realise it was end of September.

That does raise in interesting point namely that when you are claiming solely on FCO Advice for a refund (ie the Flights and Hotel are operating) does it have to be retrospective ?. When dealing with one of the intermediaries that may well be the case. It could be argued the organiser should be given the chance to cancel of their own volition which most of the "big boys" have done.

Assuming they don't do that I would say about a week out (after the latest FCO update) would be a reasonable time to raise the subject with OTB. If they are not prepared to cancel then I would go down the road of chargeback citing the PTR's and ABTA missive. I would expect to succeed.

Does anyone know if OTB have made any public comment on ABTA's endorsement of the PTR's regarding cancellation in these circumstances ?   

Butts

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

No need to got to Court - they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole, if the Law is unclear I wonder why ?
I'm not talking about a theoretical case but my own personal experience in the last few weeks.

How many package holidays have you recently charged back?  The one you were citing on a lastminute.com thread related to an entirely different scenario involving cancelled flights rather than FCO advice so that wouldn't appear relevant here, but even if you'd chosen to cancel an OTB package due to FCO advice and they hadn't challenged a chargeback, that still doesn't extrapolate to demonstrating a legal right to a refund under the PTRs!

Re "they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole", even if you've successfully charged back an OTB package due to FCO advice, what evidence do you have that this is typical?

The "challenging chargebacks" was in general not specifically with OTB, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

No, I have not any holidays with OTB so not had to cancel or chargeback anything from them.
I have had 2 chargebacks one for LM.com and one for Ryanair - in both cases at least one element had been cancelled and the claim was not solely based on FCO advice.

I had a Holiday to Spain booked with BA where both the Flights and Hotel were available but the FCO advice had changed since booking. A chargeback was not necessary as when I rang up a week before they refunded with out quibble.

Are you on the side of the Holidaymaker as a lot of your posts seem to favour the position of the operators or do you just not want to give people false hope ?

Butts

Upsidedownandaround said:

Butts said:

macman said:

Refer to your ATOL certificate, that will tell you if it is a package or not. But, if all under the same booking ref incl. the flights, then it probably is.
But no, you are not entitled to any refund, as both the accom and flights are available, and you are free to travel, subject to quarantine upon your return. FCO advice is just that-advisory.
Your best bet is to sit tight and hope that Ryanair cancel the flights. If they do, and it is a package, then you can claim a full refund from OTB.

So you disagree with the Package and Linked Travel Regulations 2018 and the Recent ABTA statement both of which say exactly the opposite ?

The holiday is still over a month away. As it stands he clearly is not entitled to a refund as Macman says. The Package and Linked Travel Arrangements 2018 and ABTA statements do not say anything about being entitled to a refund because FCO advice over a month in advance of your holiday advises you not to travel. The idea that a chargeback would be successfull a month before he is due to go on holiday is fanciful at best.

What do you think induced all the big operators to cancel their Holidays so far out when the FCO advice changed for Spain ?

eskbanker

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

No need to got to Court - they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole, if the Law is unclear I wonder why ?
I'm not talking about a theoretical case but my own personal experience in the last few weeks.

How many package holidays have you recently charged back?  The one you were citing on a lastminute.com thread related to an entirely different scenario involving cancelled flights rather than FCO advice so that wouldn't appear relevant here, but even if you'd chosen to cancel an OTB package due to FCO advice and they hadn't challenged a chargeback, that still doesn't extrapolate to demonstrating a legal right to a refund under the PTRs!

Re "they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole", even if you've successfully charged back an OTB package due to FCO advice, what evidence do you have that this is typical?

The "challenging chargebacks" was in general not specifically with OTB, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

No, I have not any holidays with OTB so not had to cancel or chargeback anything from them.
I have had 2 chargebacks one for LM.com and one for Ryanair - in both cases at least one element had been cancelled and the claim was not solely based on FCO advice.

I had a Holiday to Spain booked with BA where both the Flights and Hotel were available but the FCO advice had changed since booking. A chargeback was not necessary as when I rang up a week before they refunded with out quibble.

Are you on the side of the Holidaymaker as a lot of your posts seem to favour the position of the operators or do you just not want to give people false hope ?

I wouldn't say I'm on anyone's side as such, just calling it as I see it. I was highlighting the ABTA statement last week as something more helpful to customers than suppliers but yes, to me it's a waste of time misleading people into thinking they're in a stronger position than they really are, so do see the value in an accurate assessment of circumstances rather than taking sides.

Butts

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

No need to got to Court - they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole, if the Law is unclear I wonder why ?
I'm not talking about a theoretical case but my own personal experience in the last few weeks.

How many package holidays have you recently charged back?  The one you were citing on a lastminute.com thread related to an entirely different scenario involving cancelled flights rather than FCO advice so that wouldn't appear relevant here, but even if you'd chosen to cancel an OTB package due to FCO advice and they hadn't challenged a chargeback, that still doesn't extrapolate to demonstrating a legal right to a refund under the PTRs!

Re "they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole", even if you've successfully charged back an OTB package due to FCO advice, what evidence do you have that this is typical?

The "challenging chargebacks" was in general not specifically with OTB, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

No, I have not any holidays with OTB so not had to cancel or chargeback anything from them.
I have had 2 chargebacks one for LM.com and one for Ryanair - in both cases at least one element had been cancelled and the claim was not solely based on FCO advice.

I had a Holiday to Spain booked with BA where both the Flights and Hotel were available but the FCO advice had changed since booking. A chargeback was not necessary as when I rang up a week before they refunded with out quibble.

Are you on the side of the Holidaymaker as a lot of your posts seem to favour the position of the operators or do you just not want to give people false hope ?

I wouldn't say I'm on anyone's side as such, just calling it as I see it. I was highlighting the ABTA statement last week as something more helpful to customers than suppliers but yes, to me it's a waste of time misleading people into thinking they're in a stronger position than they really are, so do see the value in an accurate assessment of circumstances rather than taking sides.

Well one thing is certain if you sit on your hands and don't attempt to utilise the procedures and processes available to cancel and or get a refund against an uncooperative provider it's probably not going to come to you or be delayed to an unacceptable timescale.

You can but try and hopefully succeed, if not at least you have made the effort. 

eskbanker

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

No need to got to Court - they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole, if the Law is unclear I wonder why ?
I'm not talking about a theoretical case but my own personal experience in the last few weeks.

How many package holidays have you recently charged back?  The one you were citing on a lastminute.com thread related to an entirely different scenario involving cancelled flights rather than FCO advice so that wouldn't appear relevant here, but even if you'd chosen to cancel an OTB package due to FCO advice and they hadn't challenged a chargeback, that still doesn't extrapolate to demonstrating a legal right to a refund under the PTRs!

Re "they are not challenging chargebacks on the whole", even if you've successfully charged back an OTB package due to FCO advice, what evidence do you have that this is typical?

The "challenging chargebacks" was in general not specifically with OTB, sorry I didn't make that clearer.

No, I have not any holidays with OTB so not had to cancel or chargeback anything from them.
I have had 2 chargebacks one for LM.com and one for Ryanair - in both cases at least one element had been cancelled and the claim was not solely based on FCO advice.

I had a Holiday to Spain booked with BA where both the Flights and Hotel were available but the FCO advice had changed since booking. A chargeback was not necessary as when I rang up a week before they refunded with out quibble.

Are you on the side of the Holidaymaker as a lot of your posts seem to favour the position of the operators or do you just not want to give people false hope ?

I wouldn't say I'm on anyone's side as such, just calling it as I see it. I was highlighting the ABTA statement last week as something more helpful to customers than suppliers but yes, to me it's a waste of time misleading people into thinking they're in a stronger position than they really are, so do see the value in an accurate assessment of circumstances rather than taking sides.

Well one thing is certain if you sit on your hands and don't attempt to utilise the procedures and processes available to cancel and or get a refund against an uncooperative provider it's probably not going to come to you or be delayed to an unacceptable timescale.

You can but try and hopefully succeed, if not at least you have made the effort. 

Well yes, but that's a different point - of course those who are resourceful and persistent will typically succeed more than those who are passive or supine, but it's obviously important to make informed decisions rather than lashing out in all directions.

This board is littered with examples of posters who've cancelled travel arrangements without understanding the consequences and who would have had significantly better outcomes had they taken the time to research their options properly, so I don't see it as helpful to blithely assure someone that they're definitely protected by the PTRs when they may not be!