Does money at online bookmakers count as capital for universal credit?

Chomeur

The universal credit application form asks:
"Do you have any savings, investments or other capital?

Savings, investments and capital might include:

• money in savings accounts
• money in your current account
• cash
• stocks and shares
• property (but not the home you live in)
• trusts
• any other savings and investments"

I suppose money at a bookies or betting exchange probably does count as savings. Or is there a formal definition of "savings, investments and capital" somewhere to give me a better idea?

calcotti

If the money is yours it is capital.

Chomeur

calcotti said:

If the money is yours it is capital.

That's encouraging. Because if the money is in a bookmakers it's not mine, it's just a debt from the bookmaker to me. But do you have any authority for what you say?

JGB1955

OK - who 'owns' the money in the bookmakers - YOU.  Nobody else. If you were to die today (not that I would wish that on anyone) the credit in the bookmakers would be part of your estate - it's YOURS.

calcotti

Chomeur said:.. if the money is in a bookmakers it's not mine, it's just a debt from the bookmaker to me. 

That is not necessarily the case. It comes down to who is the beneficial owner of the money. (Is it held in a separate client account?)
Full guidance on capital here - bookmakers are (not surprisingly) not specifically mentioned. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890315/admh1.pdf

tomtom256

Chomeur said:

calcotti said:

If the money is yours it is capital.

That's encouraging. Because if the money is in a bookmakers it's not mine, it's just a debt from the bookmaker to me. But do you have any authority for what you say?

Any other savings or investments, from your first post would cover this. The DWP also datamatch.

A DM or fraud investigator would look at who has the beneficial interest in the money and if it was available to you upon request.

Chomeur

calcotti said:

Chomeur said:.. if the money is in a bookmakers it's not mine, it's just a debt from the bookmaker to me. 

That is not necessarily the case. It comes down to who is the beneficial owner of the money. (Is it held in a separate client account?)
Full guidance on capital here - bookmakers are (not surprisingly) not specifically mentioned. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890315/admh1.pdf

Yes, some hold money in trust accounts, some don't. And if it's not in a trust account you may be able to sell your right to it and so fall foul of H1037: "Such rights are capital because they can be sold". And then even if you can persuade the DWP that this isn't capital it sounds as if they want you to spend 35 hours/week looking for work, which may be a pointless exercise at the moment. Think I'll give it a miss.

TELLIT01

Presumably, if the OP is free to withdraw the money from the bookie at any time it will be counted as capital just the same as money held anywhere else.  If not, it's potentially a charter to fiddle the system by depositing any monies over £16k into a bookie account and have it disregarded.

Chomeur

In a way I kind of like the idea of being under pressure to get a job - now seems a good time to work as there's not much else to do - so the claimant commitment doesn't sound so bad. I guess it's not to be though - my capital is never going to go low enough.

Robbie64

TELLIT01 said:

Presumably, if the OP is free to withdraw the money from the bookie at any time it will be counted as capital just the same as money held anywhere else.  If not, it's potentially a charter to fiddle the system by depositing any monies over £16k into a bookie account and have it disregarded.

I would imagine the DWP would pick up on the money being paid to the bookie account when they check the bank statements. Any capital over £5,500 has to be verified and this is done through checking bank statements. The DWP can then ask the person to provide them with a printout of their betting account. If there's money held there the person could be prosecuted for fraud if they transferred it there to enable them to claim benefits. Not to mention the bookies are bound by law under money laundering laws to investigate large deposits.

John_

Chomeur said:

calcotti said:

If the money is yours it is capital.

That's encouraging. Because if the money is in a bookmakers it's not mine, it's just a debt from the bookmaker to me. But do you have any authority for what you say?

No, as if that was the case then money in a savings or current account would not count either.

What are you doing gambling if you are on benefits? Would it not be better to use that money to support your family, or use it for training to get you back on your feet?