Taking wedding venue to court

Thrugelmir

jacqui2020 said:

k3lvc said:

Thrugelmir said:

Did you seek legal advice before commencing action? 

The venue certainly isn't a small, fly by night operation. It would certainly surprise me if they don't have their legal ducks in a row 

That’s what worries me. But I cannot understand how they could successfully argue that this is not a clear case of a Frustrated Contract.

Your Visa expiring is a foreseeable event. 

unholyangel

Thrugelmir said:

jacqui2020 said:

k3lvc said:

Thrugelmir said:

Did you seek legal advice before commencing action? 

The venue certainly isn't a small, fly by night operation. It would certainly surprise me if they don't have their legal ducks in a row 

That’s what worries me. But I cannot understand how they could successfully argue that this is not a clear case of a Frustrated Contract.

Your Visa expiring is a foreseeable event. 

The OP is saying the contract was frustrated because the venue were unable to perform (presumably due to government restrictions on those businesses). Not that the contract is frustrated because the OP had to make alternative arrangements (contract was already frustrated/breached by that point). 

Thrugelmir

unholyangel said:

Thrugelmir said:

jacqui2020 said:

k3lvc said:

Thrugelmir said:

Did you seek legal advice before commencing action? 

The venue certainly isn't a small, fly by night operation. It would certainly surprise me if they don't have their legal ducks in a row 

That’s what worries me. But I cannot understand how they could successfully argue that this is not a clear case of a Frustrated Contract.

Your Visa expiring is a foreseeable event. 

The OP is saying the contract was frustrated because the venue were unable to perform (presumably due to government restrictions on those businesses). Not that the contract is frustrated because the OP had to make alternative arrangements (contract was already frustrated/breached by that point). 

Purely an observation. 

unholyangel

Thrugelmir said:

unholyangel said:

Thrugelmir said:

jacqui2020 said:

k3lvc said:

Thrugelmir said:

Did you seek legal advice before commencing action? 

The venue certainly isn't a small, fly by night operation. It would certainly surprise me if they don't have their legal ducks in a row 

That’s what worries me. But I cannot understand how they could successfully argue that this is not a clear case of a Frustrated Contract.

Your Visa expiring is a foreseeable event. 

The OP is saying the contract was frustrated because the venue were unable to perform (presumably due to government restrictions on those businesses). Not that the contract is frustrated because the OP had to make alternative arrangements (contract was already frustrated/breached by that point). 

Purely an observation. 

Apologies, you said it in response to OP saying she can't understand how they can say it's not frustration so I naturally assumed you were implying it wasn't frustration because of something that was due to happen 4 months after the frustration/breach had already occurred. 

Priya0008

Hello Jacqui, congratulations on your wedding, Hope you are doing well in your marriage life. 

Galloglass

Court fees are an expense I can ill afford

If you are already in the Small Claims track then you'll have paid the filing fee. There is a second equal fee (the hearing fee) due when your get the Notice of Allocation. There is help with fees if you are on low income. Not sure if there is a test for nationality/residency but you might come back and update us if you do find out. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-help-with-court-and-tribunal-fees

The whole Small Claims process takes 5 -  6 months to get through the court system so if you are abroad then there is the option to have the claim heard on "papers" only. In other words, neither claimant nor defendant actually attend court and the judge will simply decide on the papers in front of them. I'd recommend you collecting all the paperwork and communication between the parties as the judge will decide on that. No need to quote laws to a judge, as the usually know a bit more about the law than those appearing before them. 

There are a couple of phrases which you might want to quote though. The first is "the parties are bound by the four corners of the contract". Also known as the 4 corners rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_(law)

The second is "contra proferentem" where if there is ambiguity - and there is - the contract goes against the draftsman i.e. the hotel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

Early on in this virus, it was clear there were going to be a lot of "frustration" claims as companies get very lax about the drafting of their contracts. There is an even more interesting development in the UK Supreme Court where there is a bun fight between our Financial regulators (FCA) and the insurance companies over business interruption insurance - the kind of insurance the Hotel will have to pay out claims like yours.

As regards costs, these are limited in the Small claims track and anything you have paid in court fees you get back as costs follow the winner. 

Our courts are recognised worldwide as fair and balanced which is why we are a lot of "legal tourists" coming here rather than trusting their own courts.

And congratulations on the wedding. You'll never forget it.

jacqui2020

Grumpy_chap said:

‘“Should the Hotel for reasons beyond its control, need to make any amendments to your booking, we reserve the right to offer an alternative choice of facilities.”

Is this clause in the original contract?  If not, it is entirely meaningless.

Great Fosters is indeed a beautiful venue, but their customer care has been nothing short of appalling.
And customer service has obviously not improved in exactly the last 15 years.

Can I confirm, did you cancel, or did Great Fosters cancel?  This might seem like semantics for a wedding in May, but exactly this comes up regularly on the coronavirus travel board.

Both of the clauses mentioned above were in the original contract, but I don’t see how you can claim the date of an event is a “facility”. The date is the essence of the contract. Especially given my immigration status is reliant on me being married by a particular date. 

I think they’re clutching at straws, and that they were hoping I’d give up. I’m surprised they’re happy for it to go before a judge, as it seems like a straightforward breach of law on their part.

I never cancelled. They informed me the hotel would be closed on the date of my wedding, and that they would not be able to hold it as agreed.

I do not believe they can legally require me to hold my event on a future date that suits them. If I’m not married by August 31, I cannot remain in the country. Wedding receptions are still not allowed. There is no ambiguity in my view.

Thanks so much for all your help!

jacqui2020

Galloglass said:

Court fees are an expense I can ill afford

If you are already in the Small Claims track then you'll have paid the filing fee. There is a second equal fee (the hearing fee) due when your get the Notice of Allocation. There is help with fees if you are on low income. Not sure if there is a test for nationality/residency but you might come back and update us if you do find out. 

The whole Small Claims process takes 5 -  6 months to get through the court system so if you are abroad then there is the option to have the claim heard on "papers" only. In other words, neither claimant nor defendant actually attend court and the judge will simply decide on the papers in front of them. I'd recommend you collecting all the paperwork and communication between the parties as the judge will decide on that. No need to quote laws to a judge, as the usually know a bit more about the law than those appearing before them. 

There are a couple of phrases which you might want to quote though. The first is "the parties are bound by the four corners of the contract". Also known as the 4 corners rule.

The second is "contra proferentem" where if there is ambiguity - and there is - the contract goes against the draftsman i.e. the hotel.

Early on in this virus, it was clear there were going to be a lot of "frustration" claims as companies get very lax about the drafting of their contracts. There is an even more interesting development in the UK Supreme Court where there is a bun fight between our Financial regulators (FCA) and the insurance companies over business interruption insurance - the kind of insurance the Hotel will have to pay out claims like yours.

As regards costs, these are limited in the Small claims track and anything you have paid in court fees you get back as costs follow the winner. 

Our courts are recognised worldwide as fair and balanced which is why we are a lot of "legal tourists" coming here rather than trusting their own courts.

And congratulations on the wedding. You'll never forget it.

Thanks so much. Some very helpful tips there.

Yes, I’ve paid the filing fee to Small Claims, and have a Notice of Allocation to the County Court. Now I have to pay the hearing fee. Because of Covid, the hearing will take place via video link in October. I’m in the UK, so that’s no problem. 

Honestly the thing I’m most worried about is that the company will be declared insolvent, leaving me with nothing. I haven’t earned a single penny this year (you are not allowed to work in the UK whilst on a fiancée visa), and there are significant fees involved in emigrating (nearly £10K), so I can’t afford for them to hold onto so much of my money in return for absolutely nothing!

nicechap

jacqui2020 said:

Both of the clauses mentioned above were in the original contract, but I don’t see how you can claim the date of an event is a “facility”. The date is the essence of the contract. Especially given my immigration status is reliant on me being married by a particular date. 

I think they’re clutching at straws, and that they were hoping I’d give up. I’m surprised they’re happy for it to go before a judge, as it seems like a straightforward breach of law on their part.

I never cancelled. They informed me the hotel would be closed on the date of my wedding, and that they would not be able to hold it as agreed.

I do not believe they can legally require me to hold my event on a future date that suits them. If I’m not married by August 31, I cannot remain in the country. Wedding receptions are still not allowed. There is no ambiguity in my view.

Thanks so much for all your help!

Your immigration status is irrelevant to the dispute.  However, the hotel cancelling is the crucial point.  The clause allowing them to propose alternative dates has no teeth as it does not place you under an obligation to agree a new date.  As a consumer the contract should be interpreted to your benefit where there is any doubt. 

It'll take a while to wind its way through the small claims but I would expect you to win.

Galloglass

Honestly the thing I’m most worried about is that the company will be declared insolvent, leaving me with nothing.

At the bottom of the website for the parent company is a company number for Utopia Leisure Ltd, the owners. Their accounts are public knowledge. I'd say you are safe in collecting any win. If they don't pay, you can appoint bailiffs. They'll have some nice stuff to seize.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02942989/filing-history