Furlough Holiday Pay

declan199210

Jeremy535897 said:

declan199210 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

declan199210 said:

They decided to come back with the following as there explanation for me being incorrect.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/holidays-and-holiday-pay1/check-youve-got-the-right-amount-of-holiday-pay/

Well, if they could be bothered to scroll to the bottom, they would see that page was last reviewed on 26 July 2019. The law changed on this, as I explained above, from 6 April 2020.

That was my exact reply to them , in nicer words of course 

my union is of course less than helpful in this mattee

It might be worth speaking to ACAS, but in this case they may follow the line the union takes. You pay your dues to the union. This is a cut and dried case of employer error. Why won't they do anything?

I’m trying to speak to the conveyor of the union about it at the minute.

the union are weak I’m afraid and have been for agies. 

I won’t be dropping the case.

they came back with today that the base holiday pay is based on 52 weeks average which would always be the same as our base pay is the same.

its our shift averages that change week by week and they base this on an average of 12 weeks.

So totally unsure where to go with that

Jeremy535897

Either the 52 week rule applies to all the pay, or none of it. There is no 12 week rule. It went on 5 April 2020. Guidance says:
 "Holiday pay, whether the worker is on furlough or not, should be calculated in line with current legislation - see the standard guidance, based on a worker’s usual earnings. The underlying principle is that a worker should not be financially worse off through taking holiday. Where a worker has regular hours and pay, their holiday pay would be calculated based on these hours. If they have variable hours or pay, their holiday pay is calculated as an average of the previous 52-weeks of remuneration excluding weeks in which there was no remuneration."

From https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19  I don't see how it can be any clearer. From the link to the standard guidance above:

"A week’s pay is worked out according to the kind of hours someone works and how they’re paid for the hours. This includes full-time, part-time, term-time and casual workers.

Working pattern	How a week’s pay is calculated
Fixed hours and fixed pay (full- or part-time)	A worker’s pay for a week
Shift work with fixed hours (full- or part-time)	The average number of weekly fixed hours a worker has worked in the previous 52 weeks, at their average hourly rate
No fixed hours (casual work, including zero-hours contracts)	A worker’s average pay from the previous 52 weeks (only counting weeks in which they were paid)

Calculating average hourly or weekly rate

To calculate average hourly rate, only the hours worked and how much was paid for them should be counted. Take the average rate over the last 52 weeks.

A ‘week’ usually runs from Sunday to Saturday. Only use another 7-day period (like Thursday to Wednesday) if that’s how a worker’s pay is calculated.

If no pay was paid in any week, count back another week so the rate is based on 52 weeks in which pay was paid. You can count back a maximum of 104 weeks to find these.  

If a worker has less than 52 weeks of pay, use the average pay rate for the full weeks they have worked."

declan199210

Jeremy535897 said:

Either the 52 week rule applies to all the pay, or none of it. There is no 12 week rule. It went on 5 April 2020. Guidance says:
 "Holiday pay, whether the worker is on furlough or not, should be calculated in line with current legislation - see the standard guidance, based on a worker’s usual earnings. The underlying principle is that a worker should not be financially worse off through taking holiday. Where a worker has regular hours and pay, their holiday pay would be calculated based on these hours. If they have variable hours or pay, their holiday pay is calculated as an average of the previous 52-weeks of remuneration excluding weeks in which there was no remuneration."

From https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19  I don't see how it can be any clearer. From the link to the standard guidance above:

"A week’s pay is worked out according to the kind of hours someone works and how they’re paid for the hours. This includes full-time, part-time, term-time and casual workers.

Working pattern	How a week’s pay is calculated
Fixed hours and fixed pay (full- or part-time)	A worker’s pay for a week
Shift work with fixed hours (full- or part-time)	The average number of weekly fixed hours a worker has worked in the previous 52 weeks, at their average hourly rate
No fixed hours (casual work, including zero-hours contracts)	A worker’s average pay from the previous 52 weeks (only counting weeks in which they were paid)

Calculating average hourly or weekly rate

To calculate average hourly rate, only the hours worked and how much was paid for them should be counted. Take the average rate over the last 52 weeks.

A ‘week’ usually runs from Sunday to Saturday. Only use another 7-day period (like Thursday to Wednesday) if that’s how a worker’s pay is calculated.

If no pay was paid in any week, count back another week so the rate is based on 52 weeks in which pay was paid. You can count back a maximum of 104 weeks to find these.  

If a worker has less than 52 weeks of pay, use the average pay rate for the full weeks they have worked."

I’ve quoted the same article in every email and they say I’m wrong.

its unbelievable, union says they are not aware of this and that they believe it’s an agreement they have with the company. However I believe any agreement can’t superseed that government legislation as it’s a minimum requirement is it not? 

Jeremy535897

Correct. It would be like saying a union could agree to wages below the National Minimum Wage, or an employer could impose them.. 

declan199210

Jeremy535897 said:

Correct. It would be like saying a union could agree to wages below the National Minimum Wage, or an employer could impose them.. 

I’m due to speak to the head conveyor in our workplace tomorow. So I’ll see there response.
if I’m not happy I’ll go to the regional office and speak to the union there. 

Never been a fan of the union but I pay my dues just in case of that rainy day when you need them. 

Very unimpressed with the way it’s dealt with. Talking about 10’s of thousands of employee’s who it could effect really.

if I’m wrong about it all. Ill hold my hands up

Jeremy535897

Let us know how you get on.

declan199210

Jeremy535897 said:

Let us know how you get on.

There stance is that the shift premium is a separate payment over and above the minimum.

Jeremy535897

Commission would be as well, but it would be included in the calculation for the 52 week average. There is no concept of a separate payment for these calculations.