Legal Tender and consumer contract law

Spank

God knows, 18 pages of people telling them they are wrong & still they won't give up.

jon81uk

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

However, it will be interesting to discover where and when the legal tender concept IS established in our law.

The currency and banknotes act 1954
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/12

As previously mentioned, that legislation does reference 'legal tender', but it does not define it from what I could see but happy to be proved wrong...

(1) The Bank of England may issue bank notes of such denominations as the Treasury may approve and shall not issue any other bank notes, and any bank notes issued under this section may be put into circulation in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England and Wales.

(2)All bank notes issued under this section shall be legal tender in England and Wales, and all such notes of denominations of less than five pounds shall be legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(3)Bank notes shall be payable only at the head office of the Bank of England unless expressly made payable also at some other place.

See my edited post: 
"I mean it does not define it in the way the Royal Mint or BofE websites do (or the common conceptions of the term regarding it's acceptance or ability to extinguish debt), which must be drawn from other areas of law that I have not seen. That legislation does not go into what is explicitly referred to by 'legal tender' other than it is bank notes."

If that is literally the only establishment of legal tender in our law, then that tells us very little in terms of do they have to be accepted when tendered, only when there is a 'debt', only in a court situation, only when tendered exactly etc... It also flies against the definition of both Bank of England and Royal Mint, so that cannot be what they are referring to.

They are using it in that legislation it seems to purely mean the cash denominations only.

I don't think there is any definition in law as to what "legal tender" means, just what coins and banknotes are legal tender. In addition to the The currency and banknotes act 1954 there is also the Coinage Act 1971 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 which between them define what our currency is.

It seems to have a dictionary definition
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/legal-tender 
"Legal tender is money, especially a particular coin or banknote, which is officially part of a country's currency at a particular time."
That definition matches the above legislation really, "legal tender" just defines what money is, not how to use it.
My understanding seems to be that a business could exist in the UK and decide only to accept US dollars for their services (and I'm pretty certain some do). Although banknotes and coins are the UKs legal tender, there is no obligation for a business to use it. They could take payment in buttons if they wanted to.

In short though this section from a Telegraph article sums it up well
"In practice, anything can be used as currency as long as both sides agree. Equally, anything can be rejected as currency too, unless it is from one of the above categories and used strictly to pay off debt."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/no-one-knows-legal-tender-actually-means-does-matter/

trusaiyan

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

However, it will be interesting to discover where and when the legal tender concept IS established in our law.

The currency and banknotes act 1954
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/12

As previously mentioned, that legislation does reference 'legal tender', but it does not define it from what I could see but happy to be proved wrong...

(1) The Bank of England may issue bank notes of such denominations as the Treasury may approve and shall not issue any other bank notes, and any bank notes issued under this section may be put into circulation in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England and Wales.

(2)All bank notes issued under this section shall be legal tender in England and Wales, and all such notes of denominations of less than five pounds shall be legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(3)Bank notes shall be payable only at the head office of the Bank of England unless expressly made payable also at some other place.

See my edited post: 
"I mean it does not define it in the way the Royal Mint or BofE websites do (or the common conceptions of the term regarding it's acceptance or ability to extinguish debt), which must be drawn from other areas of law that I have not seen. That legislation does not go into what is explicitly referred to by 'legal tender' other than it is bank notes."

If that is literally the only establishment of legal tender in our law, then that tells us very little in terms of do they have to be accepted when tendered, only when there is a 'debt', only in a court situation, only when tendered exactly etc... It also flies against the definition of both Bank of England and Royal Mint, so that cannot be what they are referring to.

They are using it in that legislation it seems to purely mean the cash denominations only.

I don't think there is any definition in law as to what "legal tender" means, just what coins and banknotes are legal tender. In addition to the The currency and banknotes act 1954 there is also the Coinage Act 1971 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 which between them define what our currency is.

It seems to have a dictionary definition
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/legal-tender 
"Legal tender is money, especially a particular coin or banknote, which is officially part of a country's currency at a particular time."
That definition matches the above legislation really, "legal tender" just defines what money is, not how to use it.
My understanding seems to be that a business could exist in the UK and decide only to accept US dollars for their services (and I'm pretty certain some do). Although banknotes and coins are the UKs legal tender, there is no obligation for a business to use it. They could take payment in buttons if they wanted to.

In short though this section from a Telegraph article sums it up well
"In practice, anything can be used as currency as long as both sides agree. Equally, anything can be rejected as currency too, unless it is from one of the above categories and used strictly to pay off debt."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/no-one-knows-legal-tender-actually-means-does-matter/

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think when using the term). 

Framed another way then, where does the law state that courts must accept legal tender (or that you cannot be sued for non-payment of a debt if you tender into court in legal tender)? Which Act of Parliament or court case established that other than those two sites?

powerful_Rogue

Maybe these might help you, however I doubt it.

It might be helpful to you if we further clarify our understanding of common law, namely that any party is free to accept or refuse any form of payment when this is tendered to them. As a result, a method of payment needs to be available so that cases which come before the courts, whereby one party is refusing to accept payment or where no set method of payment has been contractually stipulated, can be resolved.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/legal_tender_4

&

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/legal_tender_3

MobileSaver

trusaiyan said:

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think the term means). 

Point 1) is irrelevant in that nothing in the legislative "definition" supports your notion that a retailer MUST accept either cash or "legal tender" in their establishment.

Point 2) is utterly irrelevant; most people call their vacuum cleaner a "hoover" but that doesn't magically make it a Hoover...

Point 3) is utterly irrelevant; the laws, currencies and payment options of other countries have no relevance to the UK's laws, currencies and payment options and it's embarrassing that that is the best argument you can come up with.

jon81uk

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

However, it will be interesting to discover where and when the legal tender concept IS established in our law.

The currency and banknotes act 1954
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/12

As previously mentioned, that legislation does reference 'legal tender', but it does not define it from what I could see but happy to be proved wrong...

(1) The Bank of England may issue bank notes of such denominations as the Treasury may approve and shall not issue any other bank notes, and any bank notes issued under this section may be put into circulation in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England and Wales.

(2)All bank notes issued under this section shall be legal tender in England and Wales, and all such notes of denominations of less than five pounds shall be legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(3)Bank notes shall be payable only at the head office of the Bank of England unless expressly made payable also at some other place.

See my edited post: 
"I mean it does not define it in the way the Royal Mint or BofE websites do (or the common conceptions of the term regarding it's acceptance or ability to extinguish debt), which must be drawn from other areas of law that I have not seen. That legislation does not go into what is explicitly referred to by 'legal tender' other than it is bank notes."

If that is literally the only establishment of legal tender in our law, then that tells us very little in terms of do they have to be accepted when tendered, only when there is a 'debt', only in a court situation, only when tendered exactly etc... It also flies against the definition of both Bank of England and Royal Mint, so that cannot be what they are referring to.

They are using it in that legislation it seems to purely mean the cash denominations only.

I don't think there is any definition in law as to what "legal tender" means, just what coins and banknotes are legal tender. In addition to the The currency and banknotes act 1954 there is also the Coinage Act 1971 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 which between them define what our currency is.

It seems to have a dictionary definition
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/legal-tender 
"Legal tender is money, especially a particular coin or banknote, which is officially part of a country's currency at a particular time."
That definition matches the above legislation really, "legal tender" just defines what money is, not how to use it.
My understanding seems to be that a business could exist in the UK and decide only to accept US dollars for their services (and I'm pretty certain some do). Although banknotes and coins are the UKs legal tender, there is no obligation for a business to use it. They could take payment in buttons if they wanted to.

In short though this section from a Telegraph article sums it up well
"In practice, anything can be used as currency as long as both sides agree. Equally, anything can be rejected as currency too, unless it is from one of the above categories and used strictly to pay off debt."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/no-one-knows-legal-tender-actually-means-does-matter/

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think the term means). 

Framed another way then, where does the law state that courts must accept legal tender (or that you cannot be sued for non-payment of a debt if you tender into court in legal tender)? Which Act of Parliament or court case established that other than those two sites?

But you wouldn't accept the BoE or Royal Mint definitions either. Here is another definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legal%20tender#legalDictionary that does mention debts.

It really doesn't matter, a business can accept payment in whatever form it wishes, as Martin says in the article here https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1296056/Martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cash "Likewise for all other banknotes, it’s a matter of discretion. If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too. But they’d probably lose customers."

I don't think there is anything in UK law that defines who needs to accept what currency/banknotes for whatever purpose. Try going to HMRC and paying them in buttons and maybe we will get a definitive answer. 

trusaiyan

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

However, it will be interesting to discover where and when the legal tender concept IS established in our law.

The currency and banknotes act 1954
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/12

As previously mentioned, that legislation does reference 'legal tender', but it does not define it from what I could see but happy to be proved wrong...

(1) The Bank of England may issue bank notes of such denominations as the Treasury may approve and shall not issue any other bank notes, and any bank notes issued under this section may be put into circulation in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England and Wales.

(2)All bank notes issued under this section shall be legal tender in England and Wales, and all such notes of denominations of less than five pounds shall be legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(3)Bank notes shall be payable only at the head office of the Bank of England unless expressly made payable also at some other place.

See my edited post: 
"I mean it does not define it in the way the Royal Mint or BofE websites do (or the common conceptions of the term regarding it's acceptance or ability to extinguish debt), which must be drawn from other areas of law that I have not seen. That legislation does not go into what is explicitly referred to by 'legal tender' other than it is bank notes."

If that is literally the only establishment of legal tender in our law, then that tells us very little in terms of do they have to be accepted when tendered, only when there is a 'debt', only in a court situation, only when tendered exactly etc... It also flies against the definition of both Bank of England and Royal Mint, so that cannot be what they are referring to.

They are using it in that legislation it seems to purely mean the cash denominations only.

I don't think there is any definition in law as to what "legal tender" means, just what coins and banknotes are legal tender. In addition to the The currency and banknotes act 1954 there is also the Coinage Act 1971 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 which between them define what our currency is.

It seems to have a dictionary definition
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/legal-tender 
"Legal tender is money, especially a particular coin or banknote, which is officially part of a country's currency at a particular time."
That definition matches the above legislation really, "legal tender" just defines what money is, not how to use it.
My understanding seems to be that a business could exist in the UK and decide only to accept US dollars for their services (and I'm pretty certain some do). Although banknotes and coins are the UKs legal tender, there is no obligation for a business to use it. They could take payment in buttons if they wanted to.

In short though this section from a Telegraph article sums it up well
"In practice, anything can be used as currency as long as both sides agree. Equally, anything can be rejected as currency too, unless it is from one of the above categories and used strictly to pay off debt."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/no-one-knows-legal-tender-actually-means-does-matter/

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think the term means). 

Framed another way then, where does the law state that courts must accept legal tender (or that you cannot be sued for non-payment of a debt if you tender into court in legal tender)? Which Act of Parliament or court case established that other than those two sites?

But you wouldn't accept the BoE or Royal Mint definitions either. Here is another definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legal%20tender#legalDictionary that does mention debts.

It really doesn't matter, a business can accept payment in whatever form it wishes, as Martin says in the article here https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1296056/Martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cash "Likewise for all other banknotes, it’s a matter of discretion. If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too. But they’d probably lose customers."

I don't think there is anything in UK law that defines who needs to accept what currency/banknotes for whatever purpose. Try going to HMRC and paying them in buttons and maybe we will get a definitive answer. 

I would accept their definitions (even though they are contradictory in that the BofE suggests it would prevent being sued for any 'debt', not just court awarded which is a crucial difference) if they were backed up in the law somewhere, like if they revealed precisely where the conception they refer is located, and they haven't done that (from what I can see). 

Their websites do not constitute or establish the law, they are giving a loose opinion on what they think the concept of legal tender is, but this opinion must have been formed by reviewing the law, and so they need to reveal where it is located. (this is as far as I am aware).

Also, your claim that you 'don't think there is anything in UK law that defines who needs to accept what currency/banknotes' is at complete odds to the Royal Mint and Bank of England's definition which does allude to it being accepted in regards to debt. This has come from somewhere, UNLESS THEY ARE INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE LAW!

trusaiyan

MobileSaver said:

trusaiyan said:

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think the term means). 

Point 1) is irrelevant in that nothing in the legislative "definition" supports your notion that a retailer MUST accept either cash or "legal tender" in their establishment.

Point 2) is utterly irrelevant; most people call their vacuum cleaner a "hoover" but that doesn't magically make it a Hoover...

Point 3) is utterly irrelevant; the laws, currencies and payment options of other countries have no relevance to the UK's laws, currencies and payment options and it's embarrassing that that is the best argument you can come up with.

Point 1 may very well be true, but that contrasts with the Bank of Englands loose definition, in that when a debt exists, it cannot be pursued in court for non-payment if you tendered in legal tender.

You could argue on plain reading of this, that some types of retail transactions for cars loans etc constitute a 'debt', and that the retailer must therefore accept the legal tender payment or they can't pursue you in court. It would have practical implications if that was true.

Plain reading of the BofE definition would strongly suggest if you tendered in legal tender (even outside of court) for an established 'debt' (so yes, only when a debt exists, so not instant transactions) then you have essentially extinguished the debt, because they cannot sue you for non-payment. 

It does NOT mention only court-awarded debt, and it does NOT mention only when tendered into court, that is the Royal Mint's interpretation.

jon81uk

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

jon81uk said:

trusaiyan said:

However, it will be interesting to discover where and when the legal tender concept IS established in our law.

The currency and banknotes act 1954
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/12

As previously mentioned, that legislation does reference 'legal tender', but it does not define it from what I could see but happy to be proved wrong...

(1) The Bank of England may issue bank notes of such denominations as the Treasury may approve and shall not issue any other bank notes, and any bank notes issued under this section may be put into circulation in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England and Wales.

(2)All bank notes issued under this section shall be legal tender in England and Wales, and all such notes of denominations of less than five pounds shall be legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

(3)Bank notes shall be payable only at the head office of the Bank of England unless expressly made payable also at some other place.

See my edited post: 
"I mean it does not define it in the way the Royal Mint or BofE websites do (or the common conceptions of the term regarding it's acceptance or ability to extinguish debt), which must be drawn from other areas of law that I have not seen. That legislation does not go into what is explicitly referred to by 'legal tender' other than it is bank notes."

If that is literally the only establishment of legal tender in our law, then that tells us very little in terms of do they have to be accepted when tendered, only when there is a 'debt', only in a court situation, only when tendered exactly etc... It also flies against the definition of both Bank of England and Royal Mint, so that cannot be what they are referring to.

They are using it in that legislation it seems to purely mean the cash denominations only.

I don't think there is any definition in law as to what "legal tender" means, just what coins and banknotes are legal tender. In addition to the The currency and banknotes act 1954 there is also the Coinage Act 1971 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/2 which between them define what our currency is.

It seems to have a dictionary definition
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/legal-tender 
"Legal tender is money, especially a particular coin or banknote, which is officially part of a country's currency at a particular time."
That definition matches the above legislation really, "legal tender" just defines what money is, not how to use it.
My understanding seems to be that a business could exist in the UK and decide only to accept US dollars for their services (and I'm pretty certain some do). Although banknotes and coins are the UKs legal tender, there is no obligation for a business to use it. They could take payment in buttons if they wanted to.

In short though this section from a Telegraph article sums it up well
"In practice, anything can be used as currency as long as both sides agree. Equally, anything can be rejected as currency too, unless it is from one of the above categories and used strictly to pay off debt."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/no-one-knows-legal-tender-actually-means-does-matter/

The problem with that 'definition' is that: 1) it is not how the BofE or Royal Mint define it, which allude to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted to extinguish a debt (or is a defence that would prevent you being sued for non-payment when tendered), 2) it is not what is commonly referred to by most people who use the term, and 3) not how the rest of the world use the term, which is that it refers to it's ability to be mandatorily accepted in a payment obligation or debt (which is coincidentally what most of the British public think the term means). 

Framed another way then, where does the law state that courts must accept legal tender (or that you cannot be sued for non-payment of a debt if you tender into court in legal tender)? Which Act of Parliament or court case established that other than those two sites?

But you wouldn't accept the BoE or Royal Mint definitions either. Here is another definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legal%20tender#legalDictionary that does mention debts.

It really doesn't matter, a business can accept payment in whatever form it wishes, as Martin says in the article here https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1296056/Martin-lewis-money-saving-expert-cash "Likewise for all other banknotes, it’s a matter of discretion. If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too. But they’d probably lose customers."

I don't think there is anything in UK law that defines who needs to accept what currency/banknotes for whatever purpose. Try going to HMRC and paying them in buttons and maybe we will get a definitive answer. 

I would accept their definitions (even though they are contradictory in that the BofE suggests it would prevent being sued for any 'debt', not just court awarded which is a crucial difference) if they were backed up in the law somewhere, like if they revealed precisely where the conception they refer is located, and they haven't done that (from what I can see). 

Their websites do not constitute or establish the law, they are giving a loose opinion on what they think the concept of legal tender is, but this opinion must have been formed by reviewing the law, and so they need to reveal where it is located. (this is as far as I am aware).

Also, your claim that you 'don't think there is anything in UK law that defines who needs to accept what currency/banknotes' is at complete odds to the Royal Mint and Bank of England's definition which does allude to it being accepted in regards to debt. This has come from somewhere, UNLESS THEY ARE INCORRECT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE LAW!

Following on from the freedom of information request linked above 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/legal_tender_3
the response given by BoE is that they are citing a well established principle of English law. Therefore it isn’t written into an act, just something set by precedent that a debtor has a good defence for non-payment against a contract if they have paid the exact sum owed in legal tender. 

This just infers there is precedent not actual law written into an act of parliament.

Spank

LOL I had one of my posts deleted.
I'm not emailing admin (it's stupid that I can't reply to the message they sent me), so here is my reply.

Really? you had a problem with that? Apart from jokingly suggesting the OP needs to increase the dosage of their meds what was wrong?